Annabelle White [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Annabelle White and I am joining you from Eora country. I am the coaching advisor for the coaching and officiating team at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today we will be discussing creating inclusive and respectful environments in community sport. Much of these learnings will be relevant to coaches regardless of the gender of your participants. We will be discussing inclusion and respect in sport, what it means to be inclusive, and how coaches can enhance their practice to be more inclusive. We are lucky today to welcome Nicole Mulford and Zoe Avner to the podcast. Nicole, known as Muggles in the roller derby community, is the diversity and inclusion officer at Kingston City Rollers. In their paid work, Muggles is a youth worker working with a diverse range of communities, but has a passion for supporting the queer community. Zoe is a lecturer in sport coaching at Deakin University. Her research and teaching interests are athlete and coach learning and ethical inclusive coaching and athlete development practices. Her work is focussed on supporting sporting organisations to foster more ethical and inclusive sporting environments for all participants. To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport, the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. Zoe. Nicole, we are thrilled to welcome two individuals to the podcast who both have a wealth of experience, both personal and professional. Welcome.

Zoe Avner [00:01:40] Thanks very much for having me.

Nicole Mugford [00:01:41] Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited.

Annabelle White [00:01:44] Inclusion can mean so much to so many different people. Nicole, what does inclusion mean to you?

Nicole Mugford [00:01:50] I think for me, inclusion is about having a sense of belonging and acceptance. But also understanding that inclusion looks different for different people. And so there's a level of respect in being included in the community. But I kind they have to go hand-in-hand. And so, I think for me, it's about how do we celebrate, all people and the gifts and the skills and the talents that they bring, as well as the challenges that they have and, you know, shaping and holding that, as well as holding a sense of, acceptance for, for people.

Annabelle White [00:02:29] Zoe, what does inclusion mean to you?

Zoe Avner [00:02:32] A lot of overlap with Nicole. I think for me, inclusion is moving beyond having differences or challenges tolerated or accommodated, but rather a place front and centre. When designing, learning and sporting environments, I think that's really key. It's an environment where people feel comfortable, they feel safe, they feel valued and supported. So yeah, like Nicole mentioned, I think it starts with different questions around what does an inclusive environment look like in my specific context? What does it mean for my participants and what can we do to make sure that participants feel supported, and comfortable within my specific context?

Annabelle White [00:03:18] Brilliant. Thank you both for sharing. Nicole, in your five years at the club, you've sat in a variety of positions. Official, volunteer, bench manager. You also sit in the role of Diversity and inclusion officer. Can you explain a bit more about that role of diversity and inclusion officer?

Nicole Mugford [00:03:36] Yeah. So a couple of years ago, our, club leadership were wanting to make sure that we really hit the mark when it came to inclusion. And so, they approached me as someone who was, a queer person and, kind of working in that space of kind of social and community in my professional career and said, what do we do? How do we approach that? Can we create a position? And so from there, we created a position, of diversity and inclusion officer. And that, role basically just helps me to oversee making sure we have initiatives that, I guess celebrate and include people, from diverse backgrounds. So not just members of the LGBTQ plus community, but also, looking at cultural diversity and, disability. So we are spending a lot of time at the moment looking through like, what does neurodiversity look like? Within the sporting context and just ensuring that people have a safe space to go to.

Annabelle White [00:04:43] Zoe, Nicole has just walked us through her role at Kingston City role, as much of it revolves around creating an inclusive environment. There are so many elements which go into creating an inclusive environment. Can you walk us through some of those elements?

Zoe Avner [00:04:58] Nicole touched on a number of them, but I think you know, there’s quite a few layers basically to designing inclusive environments. I think perhaps a good starting point to thinking about the structures and cultures of sport, basically, and within our specific context. So I'm mentioning, ensuring that sport is inclusive to diverse populations, perhaps starting with, considerations around structures and facilities. So how accessible facilities, how gender inclusive are various facilities. Will participants feel safe and welcome within the particular club culture. All very clear policies and guidelines in place around discrimination and fostering a more inclusive and, environment free of discrimination. The role of education as well. And we have well educated staff who are knowledgeable around, how to foster a more inclusive environment. So, these are not necessarily, the question is asking this question is no guarantee, so to speak, but I think it's a good place to start.

Annabelle White [00:06:10] You spoke a little bit there about education and education of people within those environments. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of educating coaches to be inclusive in their practice?

Zoe Avner [00:06:21] I think it's really fundamental. I think it's, really important as well to think about how we kind of pitch education and get buy-in from coaches. So really understanding the benefits, the inclusion and having an affirming and inclusive environment can, can bring participants and coaches included.

Annabelle White [00:06:43] Zoe’s just outlined some of the reasons why education for coaches around inclusion is so important in your position. Why is education for coaches around inclusion so important in creating those inclusive environments?

Nicole Mugford [00:06:59] I think it's really important that we, help educate our coaches because, at least in my club, everyone's a volunteer. So everyone kind of lives their busy lives, which they're doing their best, they're raising their families. They're, you know, involved in their local community, working their jobs. And, they, they mean well and they want to do well, but they don't always know how to do that. And so I think it's, about finding ways to help people to know the right things to say and the right things to do. In order to be able to stand alongside people and to, help people to be their best.

Annabelle White [00:07:40] Nicole, in your volunteer role, how do you personally champion?

Nicole Mugford [00:07:43] Inclusion and inclusion is championed differently depending on what that looks like for, communities. And I guess the need of the person for one of my other roles within the club has been, as the wellbeing officer. And so for me, that's meant, I look over our membership and, you know, check in on people, particularly if they're unwell or if things going on in their family. And, and that's given me that, I guess, extra insight into how to support people. And so, we've had members that have said, oh, like I found my thing when I started and came and tried this sport. But my rent just been increased, and, family's really hard, and I need to put my. I'm a single mum trying to put my boys through school, like, so, like, I won't be able to commit. And so kind of trying to find those ways to go at, oh, I can babysit or bring them along and I'll sit with them on the sidelines while you train and, try to find ways that they can be included that might look different or might be a bit inconvenient, but actually in the main, like in the long run, is beneficial for that individual. But the club as a whole, I think that's been something that's been really exciting to see. And for us to do.

Annabelle White [00:09:08] So being adaptable so that people can find a space and can feel safe and included and like they belong, that's wonderful. Nicole, there's a critical role, and a relationship between respect and inclusion. Can you explain in your own words the relationship between respect and inclusion?

Nicole Mugford [00:09:27] I think you can be respectful without being inclusive, but you can't be inclusive without being respectful. And by that I mean that, to be inclusive means you have to be open to, welcoming and embracing and, creating a place of belonging. And I think, I don't think you can do that without holding a level of respect. For the existence of a person or, their situation. You can be respectful of people. By kind of keeping them at a distance.

Annabelle White [00:10:10] So inclusion almost takes it that step further. You can't have, as you say, you can't have inclusion without respect. Because the two go hand in hand. But you can in fact be respectful. But as you say, keep someone at a distance. Yeah, really, really like that description. Zoe, Nicole just spoke a little bit about the diversity of people within her own sporting organisation. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of the diversity of people within sport, in embracing inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:10:42] Yeah, I think like like Nicole mentioned, that's really, really important. You know, often starts at the leadership structure as well. So having, diverse leaders, who can also emulate, promoting inclusion by being good role models and having that availability of different role models and pathways, which participants can recognise themselves on in, is really critical to, I guess, promoting more inclusive sport space as a whole. So it starts with that diversity, especially within the leadership structure as well, and integrating different viewpoints. I think that's really critical.

Annabelle White [00:11:25] And you've alluded to it there, Zoe, but can you talk a little bit more to the importance of lived experience in embracing inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:11:34] So it is a bit of a cliche, but I think it's often said that you can't be what you can't see. And having the availability of, you know, role models, and then able to recognise oneself in, people around us and, and especially for aspiring coaches, we know that having for example, female role models for, for young girls, getting into and pursuing coaching pathways is really critical. So, yeah, I think being able to recognise oneself and see that diversity is key to kind of. Creating opportunities and encouraging people to pursue pathways that they might not have thought about beforehand.

Annabelle White [00:12:19] Nicole, I'll come to you because I can see that you're nodding. Can you talk a little bit to how in your club you've leveraged lived experience to be a more inclusive space for more people?

Nicole Mugford [00:12:30] For us, particularly in the, I guess, the LGBTQ plus space. We've really worked to, leverage the stories of people in helping to. I guess, help people to be educated in how to be good allies. And. It's formed better, a stronger team. I think, for us, because people have each other's back, both on the track in Derby, but also in life.

Annabelle White [00:13:01] Zoe, you have recently begun researching the role of male allyship in sport coaching to allow more inclusive sports experiences for all genders whilst it's in its infancy. Can you explain this work in a bit more detail?

Zoe Avner [00:13:14] Yes. Our current research, focuses on male allyship and specifically on examining, performance and participation coaches understanding of what gender responsive coaching is and how this their understanding shapes their practices and the impact of these practices on their athletes. So we're really interested in the gendered assumptions that underpin, these practices and, how we can kind of unpack some of these, various assumptions and how that then trickles down into, a diversity of practices and how we can promote more gender responsive coaching practices as a result.

Annabelle White [00:13:59] What will be the impact of this research for community coaches?

Zoe Avner [00:14:03] I think it's really important to understanding how coaches currently form their understanding of what gender is and what being gender responsive means. So we can identify some some gaps and perhaps opportunities to improve understanding and improve our practices around gender responsive coaching for the, for the betterment of athletes of all genders.

Nicole Mugford [00:14:29] I think the idea of allyship is, really important in that coaching experience. I like Zoe how you've done that research. Starting that research around male allyship. I think for us at Kingston, we've done a lot of work around what is, being an active ally look like. Within the, I guess, intersections of your life. And so, we've started to, to kind of help people to understand their role in, passing them like at times when they need to, but also, to holding that when they need to as well. And so kind of that difference between, the role of if you're in the minority group. It's tiring to have to defend for yourself all the time. I guess that minority stress that comes with with that. And so what does I live ship looks like? Standing up for, for those people within those intersections. And I think. Yeah. Really helping our coaches to, I guess, embed that into their language as they then go about. Talking to other people and, as they're training their team to kind of say, hey. Light and being the ones that do that corrective languaging or what that looks like.

Zoe Avner [00:15:55] And I think you've hit it spot on. I think it also ties back to your earlier points around the importance of education. And I think for a lot of coaches, there needs to be kind of a starting point and an education piece there, and they're often unsure as to how to be good allies or develop those practices. So I think that's where the education piece is really critical. And research in informing, new practices around allyship is really critical as well.

Annabelle White [00:16:30] Nicole, in creating an environment which is truly inclusive and respectful, coaches must be self-aware in the first instance. Can you talk to the importance of self-awareness in creating inclusive environments?

Nicole Mugford [00:16:43] So I think this comes back to a bit of that allyship and being active in kind of your education and your learning. Being aware of, I guess, your positioning in society, in the team, in the club, and the privilege that you hold, based on your, your own background and story and experience. And then I think around noticing who else you've got around you in, in that space and in that team, and what are their needs? And so just being really aware that, just because you have access to this and you have or something doesn't necessarily mean the people on your team also have that same access. And so, while that might be inclusive for you, it might not be inclusive for somebody else. And I think yeah, just kind of pointing out to people then. The difference is in making sure that we are holding the policies and things that we have at the forefront. And having a guest opportunity for our members to. Offer feedback and offer that. Yeah. Evaluation so that we know where we might be falling short because obviously you can't see everything necessarily. And, you know, you only know what you know. And so yeah, we do. Often in our league we do monthly vibe checks, and so it's just a quick five minute survey where our members say, on a scale of 1 to 10, how you feeling at the moment? Is it related to your sport? Is it related to outside life? Do you want to talk to anyone about it? What can we do better? And it takes some 20s kind of to fill that in. And, gives us a good picture of how people are feeling within the club. And if there's anything we need to do to further support people.

Annabelle White [00:18:44] So you're hitting it from a multitude of angles. You're giving direct feedback to coaches, you're supplying them with education and resources, and then you're also empowering them to find out more about their participants and using that vibe check as you've as you've, explained. Brilliant. Zoe, an understanding of self is critical in becoming aware of how our own personal biases may impact the environments we create. As a coach, how can coaches better understand their own personal biases?

Zoe Avner [00:19:15] I think first of all, it's important to all of us, for that matter, to appreciate that we're not empty vessels. We weren't born and we didn't grow up in a social vacuum. So it's understanding the power of norms and expectations to shape who we are, social norms and expectations. And from that perspective, gender norms and expectations are very powerful norms and have influenced how we think about, and how we relate to others, basically. So, sport is set up in a very binary way. And kind of sometimes thinking outside of that binary can be quite challenging. So, being able to unpick, how these gender norms and expectations have shaped us is really critical, especially when it comes to coaching assets of different genders. So I think the first step to thinking and practising coaching differently and becoming more, more gender aware is perhaps kind of unpacking some of these kind of gender norms and stereotypes.

Annabelle White [00:20:13] You've spoken and you've alluded to it a little bit there in your explanation. But stereotypes do have a big impact on someone's perception of another person. How do stereotypes contribute to creating environments which are not inclusive?

Zoe Avner [00:20:27] I think stereotypes, be they positive or negative are inherently restrictive and should be kind of unpacked and critiqued and addressed. I think they limit, the range of sorts we can have. They limit the range of practices that we can deploy. And they often have very negative and restrictive implications for participants within our context. So, I think it's quite easy sometimes to just apply blanket approaches, but I think as much as possible, it's important to, recentered individual and understand the diversity of participants in front of us.

Nicole Mugford [00:21:05] Just going to say I think as well, like stereotyping negatively means that people feel like they have to hide something and so they don't come to their community able to be free to be their whole self. And so that energy thats spent trying to hide that, I guess that part of you. Takes up time that you could actually be using to get more strategy in your game or, you know, be a bit of a stronger player. And so, when we allow people to be. More open of who they are rather than stereotyping them and kind of, I guess, forcing people to hide aspects of who they are. Then we actually get better athletes and better participants.

Annabelle White [00:21:57] Nicole, when we spoke about having you on the podcast originally, you spoke about how Kingston City Rollers are unapologetically inclusive. What does that mean for us?

Nicole Mugford [00:22:07] That means that we have a set of values that, we won't apologise for, I guess. And, and that means that we may turn down opportunities or not be involved in things because it doesn't, align with how we how we value. So, for instance, as at Owl Lake, we're an open gender league. And so that means we have people of all genders participating. And, you know, we had an opportunity to be. I don't know what the right phrases, but maybe certified or kind of benchmarked within the Women's Roller Derby Association. And we kind of said, well, to do that would put our men and put our, gender diverse people out. They wouldn't be able to participate in that way. And that's not who we are. And that's and so we may not have as many game opportunities now because we're not certified in that way, but actually we're allowing space for everyone to participate. And that's more important to us than to get those opportunities to play.

Annabelle White [00:23:21] So, Nicole, can you tell us a bit more about your personal journey in the sport? How did you end up becoming a volunteer in roller derby?

Nicole Mugford [00:23:29] So I didn't realise roller derby was a real sport. I had seen it in a movie, with it. I think a lot of people have seen that movie, and I just thought it was a movie sport. I don't know what a movie sport is, but I thought it was a movie sport. And it wasn't until someone one day at a festival skated up to me and handed me a flyer, and I was like, oh, this is a real thing. I'm really interested in going along. And I went along because I was looking for community, and a place to belong. I was at a place in my life where I was, going through questions and challenges within my own journey, around my sexuality and my identity. And, when I rocked up to watch a game, I saw myself there. I saw, what I was trying to work out who I was. I saw that in the people that were there, participating. And so for me, I then knew that was the kind of the community I wanted to be a part of.

Annabelle White [00:24:35] What's been the value to you personally, Nicole? Being able to turn up to a sport and see yourself reflected in who was there.

Nicole Mugford [00:24:45] It really gave me the confidence to challenge the ideas that I had about who I was and come to a place of acceptance for myself. And so, I think because of the community I felt like I was able to come out and, able to express myself and. Not feel shame. And. And that was really lovely. And then to be able to be a part of a club that then didn't just kind of accept me and have me on the side, but actually was willing to embrace me so they would work alongside me and get me, you know, extra lessons on the side or to come early to kind of help me to find that place to connect in and belong. And, yeah, they really, I guess, worked hard to. To connect me in in a way and, achieve the goals. And so I think for me now, as someone who's now kind of been a part of the club for five years, I want to now also do the same. And so we kind of just build that culture within us.

Annabelle White [00:25:58] Nicole, your club has consistently been celebrated for creating an inclusive space for people to enjoy sport. What's been the benefit to your club in prioritising inclusion?

Nicole Mugford [00:26:08] Well, you get a trophy number one. That's pretty fun. But I think more than that, obviously more than that is that the league has become known as a place where people can come and be themselves and explore questions. And, you know, we've had members who have wanted to join roller derby, but they weren't sure they were kind of going through a gender identity, crisis or Turning Point. And they weren't sure if they joined. You know, a club, would they be able to play in six months? If they started kind of that journey. And so when they joined, they came to Kingston and they knew that it wouldn't matter if they were male, female, non-binary, non-gender conforming, they would still have a place on the team. And they'd still get training.

Annabelle White [00:27:10] In your role. Can you talk to a little bit more about the benefits the individual might experience when they feel like they're included in sport?

Nicole Mugford [00:27:19] Yeah, I think when they feel included, there's a sense of fun, and a sense of, I guess, achievement and success. They feel like they're thriving. But also they feel, I guess, free from that stress that they have of some of the stereotypes or things that they might get in their workplaces or schools or, other environments. I know for some of our members, they've said that being included in this, in the league, they felt like they, they came knowing who they were. And then because of that, they were actually able to grow into the person that they didn't realise that they wanted to become. And so, you know, people. Felt like they knew more about who they were because they felt included.

Annabelle White [00:28:13] Zoe, Sport has a reputation for, in some cases, being perceived as exclusionary, whether that's true or not true. Some of your recent work as an associate editor for the Journal of Sports Coaching has reflected this need for change. What do we miss out on in sport when we don't prioritise inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:28:34] I think, you know, to to kind of echo and build on our previous responses and I think you and isolate and marginalise whole segments of the population and, hinder opportunities for them to benefit from, many of the kind of joys, the fun, the affirming experiences that can come through sport. So I think it's, it's really essential to move towards, sport spaces and sport practices that do prioritise inclusion. First and foremost.

Nicole Mugford [00:29:08] And I think, when people are excluded. There's is that sense of people like people's health are impacted. People don't have that sense of social belonging and that mental health that we kind of have talked about, that are and are improvements of being a part of those communities. And so there are whole sections and minority groups then who, don't have the benefits of what that would look like if they were excluded from those communities.

Speaker 1 [00:29:40] Thank you, Zoe and Nicole, both for your time. Some really valuable insights and information tonight. So thank you so much for your time. Thanks for listening. To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the Aces Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is out of a white and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your team-mates, fellow coaches and officials and friends. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.

Annabelle White [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Annabelle White. I am joining you from Eora Country, and I am the Coaching Advisor for Coaching and Officiating at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topic.

Today we will be discussing how we as coaches can support positive relationships with body image amongst participants in community sport. Much of these learnings will be relevant to coaches regardless of the gender of your participants. We will be discussing positive body image strategies for giving technical feedback, language and what a coach's role is in creating positive body image environments. Today's topic can be sensitive for many people. If now is not a good time for you to hear this, please feel free to come back at another time that is more suitable to you. If you need support, the Butterfly National helpline is available and we will link the details in the show notes.

We are lucky today to welcome Nikki Jeacocke and Danni Rowlands to the podcast. Nikki is a Senior Sports Dietician at the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport), [an] accredited practising Dietician and credentialed Eating Disorder Clinician. She has worked with a range of athletes, from pathways to senior elite across many Olympic and professional sports, and is the AIS National Disordered Eating Initiative Lead. Nikki is a mum to three wonderful kids and is in her kid sport era.

Danni is Head of Prevention at the Butterfly Foundation, a not-for-profit organisation that represents all people affected by eating disorders and negative body image issues. She is motivated by identifying gaps and developing innovative universal prevention programs and initiatives in a range of environments. In her personal life, Danni also coaches netball at her local club in Melbourne,

To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. Danni and Nikki, we are thrilled to welcome two individuals to the podcast who both have such a wealth of experience, both personal and professional. Thank you for coming along.

Danni Rowlands [00:02:06] Thanks so much for having us, I'm joining from Wurundjeri country.

Nikki Jeacocke [00:02:10] Yeah, thanks so much, Annabelle, I'm coming from Ngunnawal country.

Annabelle White [00:02:15] Thank you. Danni, what is body image?

Danni Rowlands [00:02:18] That’s a good question. I'm going to keep it simple as possible for obviously, your audience. But but body image is the thoughts, feelings and attitudes that a person holds about their body or their appearance or more broadly, their physical self. And obviously the thoughts, feelings and attitudes then really affect the behaviours that a person, will engage in in relation to eating, physical activity and also obviously how they feel about themselves as a whole.

Annabelle White [00:02:46] Why is it important that we have a positive relationship with body image?

Danni Rowlands [00:02:51] Well, every person lives in a body, and therefore every person has a relationship with that body. And it's really at the core and foundation of an individual. It's obviously not the whole individual, but it certainly plays a significant role. So the reason we want to support positive body image, in all people, but particularly in children and young people, is because that sets the foundation for how they engage in their life, how they participate in their sports, how they interact in their relationships and friendships. So we know that having a positive relationship with their body actually really sets them up to have really positive and, thriving experiences in school, study and also sport.

Annabelle White [00:03:31] Absolutely. So Nikki, listening to Danni, then, when you think about your work in your professional role, what has been the impact you have seen when positive body image has been prioritised?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:03:44] I think what I've seen is, is that body image, is, forms a small piece of a bigger puzzle. So when body image is prioritised, I see environments where, all athletes and participants of all body sizes and shapes, but but broader than that around diversity and inclusion for all people, well, being welcoming to sport. So when positive body image is prioritised I see this is a big piece, a piece of the puzzle around, creating supportive environments where everyone is welcoming and everyone's encouraged to thrive.

Annabelle White [00:04:21] Thank you. And further to that, what has been the impact when positive body image maybe hasn't been prioritised or even compromised?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:04:31] Yeah, I think the flick has been the same, which is we then say it potentially is a place where the environment isn't inclusive for all. So, I see impacts on health and performance both ways, both in the positive and the negative. So when positive body image is prioritised, we're providing environments and creating opportunities for our participants to, have fun, enjoy their sport and participate to their best capacity, without it being impacting health, and health, and also performance.

Annabelle White [00:05:03] Nikki, you're a parent to three children. They participate in AFL, cricket and also dance. How do you, role model positive body image?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:05:12] Parents have such an important role in modelling positive body image for their kids. So, I take this role quite seriously, both because it's my profession, but also, you know, aware the impact that that I can have on my kids. So there's three key ways that I do it. The first one is around language. So how I speak about my body, how I speak about my kids bodies, but also how I speak about other children on other people's body. So I'm very aware of the language I use on all three of those facets. I try really hard to create an environment. And this is both my husband and I that work really hard to try and create an environment at home for our kids where we have conversations. We are aware that that we can control. And I do that with, you know, a quote unquote, but but we have impact of what the kids hear and see in our house, but not necessarily what goes on outside it. So we are very conscious about creating an environment where the kids feel comfortable to come home and talk about things they might have heard, things they might have written, a book, you know, heard from kids at school or been learning at at school. Even the movies I watch, you know, there are messages about bodies that are out there, and we can do our best to minimise the negative messages that kids are getting. But let's be honest, diet culture is everywhere in our society, so it is hard to shield them from everything. And I'm aware that it's not my job to shield them from everything, but create an environment where we're really comfortable to talk about things. And so, you know, often it's at the dinner table or driving the car where the kids will bring up things that they've heard or read or seen, and we'll have a conversation around, you know, whatever it is that they might have heard. And if it's problematic, why that might be the case. And what could what could have been said differently or, you know, it depends on the example. So that's the second way. And the other way is that I do try and help the kids build skills. So I'm trying to create three resilient kids that as I said, I can't control everything that they hear and say and read. So when they are exposed to messaging that maybe is problematic and not as ideal, how do they filter that? How do they identify first and foremost, probably that it's problematic, and then how are they working themselves? They can of course, come to to me, my husband and use us as, as, resources, but also trying to teach them that resilience themselves of dealing with that messaging and, yeah, how they can be, be resilient in the world that we live in.

Danni Rowlands [00:07:50] I guess further further to that because they're all fantastic, actually examples and things. I think when you're working in this space, you are aware of the things that can be helpful. Doesn't mean we’re gunna nail it every time. I think that's a really important part. So even though I've been working in this space for the majority of my career, for my life as well. But, I think things that I really try to do is that ensure that my kids know that their appearance, their body, is the least important thing about them, that that's not the thing that I value the most. And it's also the same thing with myself that that my appearance in my body is the least important and the least interesting thing about me and what I do in the world. I also really try to model positive relationship with, with movement and also eating. So, there's not diets happening in our household. I don't talk about we're eating this because we need to be healthy. I'm going for, you know, I'm going for a walk because we've got a party coming up, or whatever it might be. But also that, I guess to Nikki's point, we can't control what happens outside in the world. And we've had experiences in our house where my kids have had people make comments about their body or their appearance. And I guess how we we, I manage that, is one I try not to be reactive with them, and that their body is not the problem, it's the comments or it’s the society's way of looking at bodies that that is, but also letting our kids sit with some of that discomfort. So I've got a pre-teen and I've got a child that's just starting to move through puberty. So trying to be as supportive in that, that process as possible and open about it, but also embracing that change with with my kids too.

Annabelle White [00:09:33] Thank you both for sharing. Do you think, Danni, that there's any of these strategies that coaches can maybe employ?

Danni Rowlands [00:09:41] All of these strategies, the coaches that we can, that coaches can employ at every level. But I guess from that, community level, I think we want to make sure that we're not just saying the people that we're coaching as potential athletes or Olympians or, you know, playing for national teams or whatever it might be, that we're actually seeing them as whole people and coaches play such an important role in being a role model, particularly in early early teen years, where children start to look outside their home for positive role models in their lives. So actually having similar messages where their body is the least important thing about them that they're looking at, at, at them as a whole individual. Role modelling through language as Nicki really beautifully articulated. And as well as just what they're celebrating in, the the, the young people that they're working with is really critical as well.

Annabelle White [00:10:35] Nikki a positive relationship with food and body image go hand in hand. What role if, anything do coaches have in supporting participants in understanding what and when they should eat and drink?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:10:47] Yeah, you're absolutely right, Annabelle. That food and body image do go hand in hand, but we want to be careful that we don't overstate coaches role and the role they have to play in supporting their participants around nutrition. So, if, unless the coach is a trained nutrition professional I think the easy answer here is they don't need to be making any comments on on what their participants are eating. In saying that as a trained dietician, if I was coaching a group, I would still not be commenting on what they're eating, because what I'm seeing of my participants is a small snapshot in their overall day, etc. etc. So even trained professionals probably wouldn't be commenting. So I think the easy answer is, you know, really minimal role here. The role that coaches do have to play though is in providing opportunities. And I'm going to give an example around fluid here. So coaches will, it's a very common part of coaching that they will, coaches provide a drinks break for their participants. And so an example I might give you if it's a 40 degree day and you know you're training outside and a coach is used to normally giving one drinks break in an hour session, they might switch that up and give 2 or 3 drinks break. So drink opportunities because it is a hotter day. So the coach's role is in providing opportunities definitely, but what the participant drinks and how much is on the participant and their parents.

Annabelle White [00:12:21] What should a coach do if participant comes to them with questions around diet and nutrition?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:12:27] I think the coaches get to have a pass and I get to say, look, this isn't my area of expertise. And what I would be recommending coaches do is refer to, refer the parent or if it's a participant asking, you know, but talking to the parent as well around how could you access some trained nutrition advice. So whether it's going through Dieticians Australia to access a dietitian or sports Dietitians Australia, or if you wanting some specific sports nutrition advice heading to to either of those websites, you know there are a fine sports dietician on on the the websites and you can then find someone in your local area.

Annabelle White [00:13:04] Nikki, what's the relationship between body image and an eating disorder?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:13:09] Well as Danni mentioned, body image [is] being the thoughts and feelings that someone has around their body, and it's then the behaviours that someone engage in as a result of those thoughts and feelings. So when someone has, body image dissatisfaction or persistent negative thoughts and feelings about their body, this can lead them to then engage in unhelpful behaviours, particularly disordered eating, which then places them at a heightened risk for developing an eating disorder.

Annabelle White [00:13:37] So why is it important for coaches and community sport to be aware of the relationship between the two?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:13:42] I think there's a twofold reason and the role of community coaches here. So prevention and the environment that that the coaches are creating play an important role, and early identification as well. So if they are noticing some signs or symptoms or some concerning behaviour in one of their participants, coaches knowing who to go to because it is most certainly not their job to diagnose. So how can they have a conversation with the parent potentially to express what they've seen? But feeling really comfortable that they are able to refer on.

Annabelle White [00:14:20] Danni, I'll come to you. Nicki spoke then about some concerning behaviours that might be, that they may identify in their work as a coach in one of their participants. How can coaches identify some behaviours that may be deemed as concerning?

Danni Rowlands [00:14:37] The best thing coaches can do is really be across what the warning signs are and understand what what it looks like, just generally because eating disorders don't discriminate, disordered eating doesn't discriminate, like doesn't discriminate as well. So it's important to perhaps identify that maybe athletes that are at a higher risk, just pure, purely because of the nature that involves nutrition and eating and training in a different way. But what we do know is that by understanding what those warning signs are and knowing what they're kind of looking out for, then that can really help. So, I know that the AIS has some wonderful resources that coaches can access and that information on the Butterfly Foundation website also to give that that information. So if we are noticing that perhaps an athlete or a participant, young person is doing more and training more, that we're not looking at that and just over celebrating that, that we're actually got the lens of, oh, I hope this this young person is okay. Has there been any criticism about their body shape or their size? Are they going through puberty and how are they managing that? Do they seem to be comfortable in their body during this experience, or do they seem to be be not? So if we start to see maybe some early signs of body dissatisfaction, that's when we really need to jump on on it as a coach, that's not to try to fix it ourselves, but that's more to just be alert and also just to to speak openly, potentially with that, that young person's parent, and help them to become aware.

Nikki Jeacocke [00:16:09] If I could add there that change in an individual is an important one. And coaches often know their participants well, and they get it's a really lovely relationship that, that they build. And so if things change for the young person, as Danni said, it can be the coach that's often the first to see that. And whether that's that they're asking for more training sessions or, you know, they're more conscious in the uniforms. You know, there's a number of examples we can give there. But but identifying change in an individual, which then comes back to treating each individual as an individual, a narrative that I do hear a lot in my role is things around, you know, well, you know, enough weight loss, enough weight hasn't been lost or there hasn't been any weight loss. So it's not an issue. And I would really like to push back against that narrative around weight as a early warning sign. There are times where there are eating disorders, where weight is absolutely never a sign, and there are times where weight loss is a very late sign. And by the time we we pick up on it and waiting for, you know, quote unquote, to drop far enough that we're then concerned we could be talking about an eating disorder that is very well embedded.

Annabelle White [00:17:26] Nikki, how would you describe a community sport environment that is body image safe?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:17:32] I think this is a really important one. So the environment that is created for our young people is so important and the link to body image. So community sport where I've seen that being done well, it's where all body shapes sizes are welcome and that they have a role to play so that we're not prioritising specific body shapes, sizes, whether that's height, as well, to specific positions. And it's also around the language that is used. So I think it's creating a safe environment. And then within that the language that it's used. So for community coaches it's being very specific about you know, bodies are being used to do the sport. They are the vehicle for the sport. But being very conscious of the coach that when you are trying to give technical advice and technical feedback to someone in your sport, that you are giving very specific technical feedback and not appearance-based feedback. So an example I have here is around, you look good. It is a comment that I hear a lot in community sport and in high performance sport too, to be honest. So, you know, what do we mean by you looked good. And I know when I hear coaches say it that they they are meaning technical, but I would like to have as a guess that for anyone who is told they look good no matter where they are and what they are doing, that that person is probably thinking, that's an appearance-based comment. And I had this conversation with a water polo coach and I said, you know, I really don't, you know one of my bugbears is “you look good”. And I said, “Oh, I'm really shocked by that Nikki, I use that all the time when I'm, you know, coaching my water polo athletes”. And I said to them, “What are you trying to say when you say you looked good in the water today? Because that's the example that I was giving. I said, what are you trying to say?” And they're like, “Well, you know, if I'm talking to the goalkeeper, what I was trying to say was they had great height in the water, they were sitting really high up and, you know, so they had a really good, spread of their arms and they were covering a lot of the goal. And so, you know, their body position in the water was really great”. And I'm like, “Excellent. So rather than you're looking good where I'm pretty sure the person is thinking, I look good in my togs today. You're trying to actually give very technical feedback so that there's no ambiguity and there's no confusion about what you're trying to say.”

Annabelle White [00:20:04] Danni, do you have anything to add there?

Danni Rowlands [00:20:06] I think if we're thinking about, environments, and how we can make them body image safe, particularly at that community level as well. Obviously the language is a critical one, but it's broader than that, too. It's obviously thinking around uniforms and thinking about what's, you know, what's available to young people that will make them feel comfortable. We know that young people, particularly girls, will drop out of sport at a higher rate than at any other time than when they're in that early adolescent age group, around that, 12, 13, 14 years old. So what are the, what are the uniforms that we're making available? Can we have flexibility around that so that we make sure that young people do feel comfortable in their body while it's changing and, and whatnot?

Annabelle White [00:20:51] So, Nikki, in your experience, have you noticed times when coaches or even others in sport haven't been conscious of their language and how it might impact someone's relationship with body image?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:21:03] Yeah, I have I think there's three examples I'd like to give here around how language, can impact someone's body image. I think there's the obvious overt commenting around someone's body that is offensive, negative, harmful, and I think most people don't need me to give an example of that. They'll be aware of what that looks like. I think we see that less and less. And that's one. I think there are two times, and in your question was around when they haven't been conscious. I think that's a really conscious and obvious choice to make those comments, those comments. I think there are times where there are two ways that coaches can, can unconsciously, that their language can be harmful and that can be casual comments. And an example I give here is like, if a coach, you know, you've got a group of kids and you just about to go off for Easter school holidays, you know, a coach, the casual comment around, “Oh, well make sure you don’t too many Easter eggs, you know, over the break. You know, we've had a great pre-season. We don't want to undo all the hard work that we've done”. So that's not an overt and overly offensive, but it's that casual comment which is really encouraging dieting, diet culture, that body's changing. You know, there's a real negative undertone there. And then the flip could be said that, you know, when the, when the team come back from school holidays of, “So clearly you enjoyed your Easter eggs, you know, everyone, everyone clearly had a few too many”. You know, so I think that that can be, you know, and sometimes we do that as banter and chit chat, but we need to be really careful of those casual comments. And the other example that I would give is when we actually think we're giving something, someone a compliment, but we're accidentally potentially causing harm. And so the example that I gave before around you look, you looked good in training today. That is coming, I would suspect, from a really great place when anyone says that, but it still has the potential to cause harm.

Annabelle White [00:23:02] Yeah, absolutely. And I've certainly seen it in my experience, particularly where you haven't seen a child for an extended period of time and maybe they've grown just in height. And that throwaway comment of, oh, you've you've grown so much, even we see that in just, you know, our general day to day lives and it's so easy to make those throwaway comments and not realise the impact it might be having. Danni, coaches will need to comment on a participant's body sometimes to give technical feedback, and we've spoken a lot about that today. How can coaches manage this whilst still creating a environment that's body image safe?

Danni Rowlands [00:23:40] So it is going to depend on obviously the sport and what kind, because some sports have very technical requirements that they need that will require coaches to make lots of comments around body positioning or whatever that might be for their sport. We want, obviously avoid where we can, is using the body size as the motivator. So for example, that if we say, because then what we're doing is we're inadvertently attaching their weight and how they look to their worth or their performance as an athlete. So we want to try to keep them a little bit separate. So for example, if we've heard in a sport oh you landed really heavy then. That could be perceived as. Oh, gosh, I'm I'm heavy, I’ve landed heavy noting that for some some participants that feedback will be just taking it with a grain of salt and won't really be thought too much about it. So we do need to be mindful of the fact as well, that how our comments land will be different on everybody, but we can't control that. So we don't know how anyone feeling in a certain certain point.

Annabelle White [00:24:43] Danni, practically, what are some things that coaches can do to embed positive body image practices into their coaching?

Danni Rowlands [00:24:50] So I think the first thing is, is coaches need to check in with themselves and actually do a bit of a reccy [reconnaissance] and understand what language they're using, what are the words they’re using. And as I mentioned, coaches are people too. So their relationship with their own body is going to be a massive factor in how they also talk and speak and view bodies and, and, you know, young people in their, in their own sport. How they were coached, the language that was used with them is also going to influence. So I think that's the thing we need to really remember is that they are influenced by so many things as a coach. It's also about thinking about the environment that you have with your participants and really trying to think about what are some starts, some changes that you can make. So we don't want to try to think, we've got to fix everything and change everything and everything's broken right now. It is about what can we what what can we do in bite-sized pieces? Again, not to use a food, food analogy in this topic, but what are some things and simple things that we, we can do? Or if there is something like you always say “You look good” or every time you see your, your team or athlete, you know, participants when they return from holidays or whatever, you, you make a comment about, about how they look, can it be something else? Can you actually just really have a mindful, conscious thought around, what is it that I'm going to actually focus on in that. Of course, seeking to learn and learn more about these topics is really important as well. So there are some some great resources. And, and I will share some of those are attached to this as well. But there are some resources that can help you with language and help you consider the role modelling aspects that you do. If you feel it's a culture thing within your sport, actually kind of be a bit of an advocate for that as well. So I think we can be that practical and do that practical stuff one on one as a coach and think about ourselves as an individual, but also how can we influence the broader sport and if, when or even it might just even be at our club? What are some things that we could implement to actually really support positive body image in our sporting environment? Coaching is a really, really, honourable role and a job to do. And again, people don't need to be perfect. And, you know, coaches come up against criticism. And it's really important that our aim with this, this topic and what we're sharing today is not to to make coaches feel like they're getting it all wrong or that there's real criticism and they're all doing it in a really bad way. But rather that this is an opportunity for coaches to, to grow and to learn and to, as we say, unlearn. And that's what self-awareness allows you to do, is to, to check in with yourself and what is driving and what is motivating and what has influenced your coaching style. And just be open to other ways. That's going to be the benefit of the participants, but it's also going to be at the benefit of yourself. Because when we keep learning about body image, the the thing that allows us to grow is that that we find new skills and strategies and, you know, moments of awakening, that helps our own body image to.

Annabelle White [00:28:04] Danni and your role as a coach, how do you work to improve your own self-awareness?

Danni Rowlands [00:28:10] Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, I've worked in that eating disorder and body image space for over 20 years. I've been a high level, athlete in sport, be it netball, and I've also had a lived experience of an eating disorder which did kind of, sport definitely contributed, wasn't the only factor, but definitely contributed. So me, constantly checking in is just part of my nature. And while I have fully recovered, I think we keep growing and evolving as as human beings. So I don't ever think there's an end date without it. With each age and stage that comes in life, I'm I'm having to, you know, look at things through, through different lenses. So I guess, you know, I do think that that self-awareness is it's a priority to me, as is continually growing, learning and unlearning, I think about things even in this space that I've worked in for 20 years, things that I initially thought was the right message that we've now morphed and changed has evolved. So it's not about perfection. The world we live in is continually growing and changing. And so it's it's about being open to the ride of that, so that you can, can keep, keep learning more. And this topic is constantly changing. It is constantly evolving for. It is about kind of tuning in, knowing who I am, what's important to me. And, you know, when I coach the team, I've had them since under nines. I've watched them trying to grow some of them. Some of them involved in pathway stuff. But for me, it's just their enjoyment and just making sure that their experience is, is a really positive one.

Annabelle White [00:29:41] Nikki, how can coaches really empower their participants to see their bodies as just really capable?

Nikki Jeacocke [00:29:49] I mean, a lot does come down to the language that we use. So we're using positive language. But giving them examples, you know, the whole and what I love about sport for children is that it, you know, they're not great and I love watching. You know, Danni gave the example of the coaching her netballers from under nine, you know, until I think they're, you know, around 13 at the moment. You know, watching my kids who've gone from playing a sport where they could barely catch a ball, barely hit a ball, and watching that skill progression and the joy that that brings an individual of, of, and mastering a skill. I don't want to say that because, you know, our young people aren't there yet, they're not masters of their sport. And that is absolutely okay. So, you know, the strength for me around community sport is so many, so many, so many things. But around that camaraderie, you know, teamwork and, you know, doing hard things and failing and that it's okay to fail, but doing hard things and also learning and getting better and seeing that growth. So for me, it really is that strength-based focus, you know, how can we focus on all the things that their bodies can do and their bodies of all different shapes and sizes can do the same activity? You don't have to be a cookie cutter, exactly the same individual to be successful at a sport. So, you know, community sport. And within that, coaches, I think by creating a safe and supportive environment you are empowering your participants and just allowing them to be themselves, be individuals, they then, hopefully they will flourish.

Annabelle White [00:31:22] Danni, there are so many resources out there to support coaches in navigating body image. Do you have any favourites that you'd like to recommend coaches take a look at?

Danni Rowlands [00:31:31] There are lots of resources around body image, so there's books and things like that. And I think that's a really critical place for coaches, particularly community based coaches. To start is actually just to look at the topic of body image more broadly rather than a specific to to sport, because particularly in community sport, you know, that's, that's they're all people. They're not we're not, you know, drilling them down into to elite athletes. So definitely having a look. So Butterfly [Foundation], we've got lots of, you know, tip sheets and information. I love the AIS, so while it has been designed for, obviously coaches of of higher level and higher performing athletes, I think the information, the resources around disordered eating in sport, there is, is fantastic as well. So Butterfly [Foundation] have a range of resources and information that that can be accessed. Butterfly [Foundation] also has our Body Kind Sports, which is which offers supports to community-based through to pathway environments that can really help coaches and sport administrators and parents to understand their role in supporting positive body image.

Annabelle White [00:32:39] Thank you Nikki and Danni both for your time. Some really valuable insights and information. If today's podcast was triggering to you, there is support available. Please reach out to the Butterfly National Helpline. The details will be included in the show notes.

Thanks for listening.

To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the ASC’s Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is Annabelle White and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your teammates, fellow coaches and officials, and friends.

This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.

Annabelle White [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is at Annabelle White. I am joining you from Eora country, and I am the coaching advisor for coaching and officiating at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today we will be discussing the role of menstruation and hormonal contraception in community sport. We will be discussing the impacts of menstruation and hormonal contraception on participation in sport, how we as coaches can create a culture of openness and transparency, and how we can leverage the lived experience of those around us to create this culture within our team and participant groups. To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport, the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. We are lucky today to welcome Noella Green and Doctor Briana Larsen to the podcast. Noella is a retired rugby union athlete. During her career as an athlete, she personally experienced the transition of planning pre-conception training while pregnant and returning to sport postpartum. Noella is a practising accredited exercise physiologist and scientist working in the clinical space of female health at all stages of life. She is actively involved in researching female athlete health, and is currently contributing to two projects returning to sport postpartum and sports bra protection in contact sports. Brianna is a senior lecturer of sport and exercise at the University of Southern Queensland. Her research at the moment is focussed on the menstrual cycle, hormonal contraception and educating athletes on these topics. She is actively involved in supporting sports to better support athletes to understand these topics and their impacts. Briana and Noella, I am thrilled to welcome you both today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:01:54] Thanks so much, Annabelle, for having me on the podcast. And I do just want to first, before we get into our chat, acknowledge the traditional owners of the Ipswich region where I'm recording today, the Jagera, Yuggera and Ugarapul people.

Noella Green [00:02:05] Thank you so much for having us. It's really exciting to be here.

Annabelle White [00:02:09] So, Brianna, what should coaches know about menstruation?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:02:13] That's such a big question and I could answer it so many ways, but I, I think if I can split it into two broad areas, one being practical aspects and the other being creating an open and positive culture when it comes to discussing these topics. So when I say practical aspects, that covers things like having solid knowledge of the menstrual cycle and hormonal contraception, and not expecting coaches to be doctors, but just having a good basic knowledge of how these things may affect the athletes. Encouraging menstrual cycle tracking for athletes because, you know, data is power and we can apply that to our training. And also having pathways in place for athletes who might come to with, with issues with their cycle. So those sorts of practical things I think some big takeaways. But also the second part of that, creating a culture where athletes actually do feel comfortable having these discussions, if they're having issues with their cycle that may potentially be impacting their training or even just, you know, their overall health and wellbeing, they should be able to feel comfortable coming to their coaches or other support staff with those issues in the same way that they would, for example, an injury. And at the moment, the data suggests that athletes don't feel comfortable having these conversations with their coaches. So I think creating that, that culture is the second takeaway that I'd like to, to really impart today.

Annabelle White [00:03:38] Yeah, brilliant. And you've kind of spoken to it a little bit there. Women and girls necessarily don't feel comfortable having those conversations. There's a statistic at the moment that seven out of ten young girls avoid being active while on their period. So why is it important for community coaches to understand the effects of menstruation.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:03:59] Using that example that you just provided Annabelle we know that young girls in particular do often avoid physical activity altogether, and that may be in part because the culture within the sport isn't that inviting or open to be able to say, hey, I'm just feeling a bit off today. Can I, you know, train at a seven out of ten instead of a nine out of ten. And maybe if there was that culture within sport, maybe we'd have girls and women continue participating and not feeling like they need to bow out.

Annabelle White [00:04:29] Listening to Brianna, there Noella, when you reflect on your experience in sport, did menstruation impact your participation?

Noella Green [00:04:37] Yeah. So for me it was at quite a young age for, for me, I was very I was always running around crazy as a kid. I had three big brothers. Once I got my period, I was in high school. And, so, I mean, I just had a very abnormal cycle, pretty much every two weeks I get my period. And then it'd be quite heavy for 2 to 3 days. So from a confidence perspective, and it was confidence in relation to, like, if I was doing something in sports, I'd be worried about leaking. I'd be worried that somebody could see the wings on my pad because we had these big basketball shorts. And if you're sitting on the ground, people could see stuff I'd be wearing. And there were times that I actually leaked through. So for me, that was really the that was where the mental block was for me participating in sport. And my dad saw that quite early. My mom is from the highlands of Papua New Guinea so when you talk about menstrual cycle and periods and all that kind of stuff, it's, it's a whole different culture and a whole other conversation. So my support came through my father, and the only way my father knew was to take me to the doctor's and say help my daughter, the response to which was to put her on a hormonal contraceptive. So as I progressed through life and even to the the elite sporting side of things, for me there was less of an impact in sports because I was on hormonal contraceptives.

Annabelle White [00:06:13] You spoke about normal, and I want to dive into normal menstruation because I'm sure any women listening to this, or even men who have had those conversations with their partners or friends, know that the experiences of menstruation are so diverse. So when you were growing up, or even just going through sport, was that a regular conversation that you had with your team-mates, with coaches on what does normal menstruation look like?

Noella Green [00:06:41] Never. No. Oh, not at all. And I think the only thing that was kind of normal, when I was younger, was I'd see friends that would feel very unwell or I've got my period, then would step away from sports at school. If I go to the the dressing rooms in rugby, you know, we would basically shout does anyone have a pad? Anyone got a tampon? Anyone got this? I just got my period. You know, sometimes, the athletes would talk about some of the symptoms that they were feeling at the time or that I was feeling off, but it was never conversation, with the coaches. And I'm in a male dominated sport as well.

Annabelle White [00:07:30] Brianna, I might come to you and ask a similar question. I guess understanding our bodies and understanding how we may differently, experience menstruation to the person standing next to us. It's very humanising and it's very, I guess, calming to know that what you're experiencing in your body may be different from someone else, but is still normal. So what's the benefit of, I guess, athletes or participants in sport and coaches, to an extent, to understand that the experiences of menstruation are going to vary.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:08:03] I think that's really important to get across, and I think we're still not doing a good enough job with educating young people who are going through that experience. I know I think it's gotten better than, you know, when I was growing up and going through that, but I know that I was someone who didn't have what was considered normal menstruation. I got my period very late, ended up much, much later down the track being diagnosed with PCOS or polycystic ovarian syndrome. But it it wasn't something I felt comfortable talking about. You know, I was doing not high level, but I was doing, you know, recreational level training a lot with gymnastics. And certainly it wasn't something I felt comfortable saying, oh, I don't have my period yet to other people. I was aware that it wasn't normal, but I certainly was not comfortable to have those conversations.

Annabelle White [00:08:53] What does the research tell us about, experiences of menstruation, particularly as it's relevant to sport? Are athletes regularly experiencing what's classified as normal menstrual patterns or are they varying? Do people have a good understanding of what normal looks like?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:09:16] I can speak to that one. Athletes have higher rates of menstrual cycle dysfunction than the general population. They also tend to have, although this is a little bit specific on the region and sport that you study, they tend to have higher rates of hormonal contraceptive use, which might not be surprising if you think about having higher rates of menstrual cycle dysfunction and oftentimes one of the sort of treatment options or ways that that might be managed is through hormonal contraception. We also know that athletes use hormonal contraception to manipulate their cycle. So, you know, taking the oral contraceptive pill so you can then choose when to take those sugar pills and time that around aligns with training. Although a lot of the, the, the issues that we see, in athletes, you could certainly extrapolate out into the general public as well. But in terms of the knowledge, we certainly say that that is still very low.

Noella Green [00:10:21] And I guess I guess from my side, you know, what I absolutely love is the wonderful people like Brianna doing this research, because there is a lot of research out there. But I also like to, I guess from being an athlete and then having a clinical exercise background, it's also that research application to practice component that comes into it. So, you know, Brianna mentioned the the lack of knowledge, absolutely huge. And that's just across the board. And I think no matter what it is in life, if you don't know about something, it can be overwhelming. As soon as you start to talk about the menstrual cycle and female athletes are like, oh, okay. So I think that definitely yes, there is a lack of knowledge there on just the bare minimum of what you need to know, you know, what are the hormones? how are they important to you as a female? How can you actually work with them rather than against them to make people sick with illness scale. So that's kind of the normal. And then understanding that you as an individual, to the person who's on the left and right of you is that could be different. They could be similar. But I think when we talk about normal, when I talk about normal, I'm like, what's your normal? You need to know what your normal is. Because once you know what your normal is, then you can start adapting and changing to make sure you're getting the best health outcomes, but also the best sporting performance outcomes.

Annabelle White [00:11:51] Yeah. And it's interesting because we have to recognise the, the critical role of clinical practitioners in this conversation. We're not expecting our community coaches to be the fountains of knowledge. We understand that they're pulled in a million different directions and they're doing incredible work. But what kind of support, from your coaches, would have made managing your menstruation more tolerable?

Noella Green [00:12:15] I think I look at it as. You're working with female athletes. You learn about strength and conditioning skills, drills, whatever it may be. The reality of working with female athletes is we have different nuances than the male counterpart. Too often I see programs cookie cut to be like, okay, this works. And it might not necessarily. You know, it's a little bit different in in netball. If there's a female dominated sport. But because, you know, my bias is with rugby union. So you know, that's where it comes from for me. But I kind of say programs are picked up. This is what the men do. The women can do this as well. You do all the same strength and conditioning sort of things. And we'll get the same outcome, you know. So for me, I think it's. If coaches lent in to going, okay, I'm working with female athletes. They have boobs, they have vaginas, they have a period that will turn up at some point, whatever that normal is. So having some awareness of that, becoming familiar potentially with the terminology that the group is using and then understanding how they can support that athlete.

Annabelle White [00:13:33] We're going to move on to discussing hormonal contraception. So, Brianna, what should community coaches know about hormonal contraception?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:13:41] I think this topic can be really overwhelming because there's a lot in it. You know, there's a lot of medications, there's a lot of physiology. So I understand that it is really overwhelming. And of course, we don't expect coaches to be doctors and understand, you know, the ins and outs of every one of these medications. But I think having a basic understanding of the different types and that like the menstrual cycle itself, they will affect people differently. So from person to person, some people go on a hormonal contraception and it it might, you know, really help them. And obviously maybe it depends obviously what their reason is for taking it. Obviously if the reason is pregnancy prevention then, you know, that's very helpful. People take it for other reasons as well. But I think having an understanding that there are there is oral contraceptive pills. Everyone knows that, that there are 30 plus types available in Australia with different hormonal makeups. And there are, you know, potential different adverse side effects. But in general, the adverse side effects associated with hormonal contraception are often quite similar to the adverse side effects that people might experience as a part of their cycle, particularly if they have menstrual cycle dysfunction. So having a broad understanding of things like, you know, breast tenderness, mood changes, weight changes, you know, heavy, heavy bleeding, these sorts of things can really impact, obviously, how someone feels and also potentially their ability to train. And if we take the heavy bleeding example and someone ends up anaemic, you know, that that's obviously something that can impact training. So I do think it's worth having a basic understanding that these medications can cause side effects, and that some people will have to go through quite a process to find one that works for them if they do, in fact, you know, need to be want need to be on one.

Annabelle White [00:15:32] Noella speaking to your experience, you started on hormonal contraception, basically to control your experiences of your menstrual cycle and symptoms associated with it. And it almost. Yeah, it created some regularity with your menstrual cycle. So can you speak to a little bit more about your experiences in sport and how the hormonal contraceptive pill impacted your experiences in sport?

Noella Green [00:16:01] For me, it was. It just it made it easier. Like. It made it easier. I knew if I, since it if I was training on the weekend, if I had to perform on the weekend for a competition, I had every confidence that I was not going to be impacted by my menstrual cycle. So for me, as I said, that was really the only thing for me as an athlete, because I actually had confidence on a weekend that I was able to perform with minimal distraction about having my period or worrying about, you know, blood seeping through my shorts. And the other great thing about the sports is we also had, we had dark shorts, which was fabulous.

Annabelle White [00:16:45] Brianna, I'll come to you. Noella kind of explained there how taking hormonal contraceptive gave her confidence in sport. It gave her a sense of security that she wasn't going to bleed through her shorts, that she could manage her symptoms appropriately so that she could show up in the way that she knew she was capable of. And I'm sure those experiences will resonate with a lot of young women and young girls as well. She also mentioned that she started hormonal contraceptive at quite a young age, adolescence, being prescribed hormonal contraception, often at this age.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:17:20] Yeah, it's very, very common in, in young people. And it's a medication that young people can go in and get, you know, without their parents as well.

Annabelle White [00:17:28] So when we think when we think about incredible community coaches in our community sport environments, mom or dad may have picked up the local cricket team just because they were the the last one to step back, the last one to not necessarily say that they can't coach, they're doing their best. They want their girls to have a great time in the sport that they're coaching. Why is it important for these community coaches to understand some of the symptoms associated with hormonal contraception? Some of the reasons why participants may be on hormonal contraception and maybe the impacts that this medication may have on their experiences in sport.

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:18:11] I think, you know, like we said earlier, we don't expect coaches, community coaches to be doctors and to know every single thing about this stuff.

But the data does show us that these medications can have an impact on how people feel and their well-being. The, you know, ability to, to exercise, especially if they're potentially trying a new medication and experiencing some side effects, maybe the one they're taking hasn't been the best fit for them. So I think anything that has the potential to affect your athletes or your participants like that is worth coaches knowing. But I think I really do think the biggest part, especially at that community level sport, I think the biggest part is creating the culture. And, you know, maybe it's if you've got a window of time where you can find one of these, you know, half an hour, a little online modules work on that. These are on the Female Performance and Health Initiative website. Have a look at an infographic. Just so these terms aren't a complete novelty, sort of a bit across the terminology. Although of course, you know, the scientific terminology and the terminology people use are often quite different as well. But I think having a basic understanding and then above and beyond that, it's just about saying to the athletes, making it known to them, if you're working with athletes of that age or participants of that age, hey, if you're having a bad day, if you're having any sort of menstruation related symptoms, or if you're trying any sort of new medications, feel free to let me know. We can tailor your training. Just come and have a chat. And then being open to those conversations when they happen.

Annabelle White [00:19:41] Noella, do you think an open culture and more transparency around these conversations would have improved your experience if there was less taboo around those kind of conversations?

Noella Green [00:19:55] Yes, I think it would actually help to support and change the environment for for athletes. And I when I look, you know, when I refer to athletes, if I look at my clinical space, you know, if you're somebody who just likes to walk every single day, like you're an athlete in your own space. You're working with female athletes, we have a different hormonal profile to to males. No ifs or buts about that, right. So I think being open to that and being okay to lean into an uncomfortable conversation, that will be what will start to change this space for females to feel comfortable, to feel confident, to have these conversations. You know, I think sometimes people can get caught up in how complex it is or how big it is. But I think through our conversations and through our actions, that can be really powerful in creating an environment where. Your group. Your supporting group can be unstoppable in what they're doing. I think for me, it's find the language that resonates with the group but also be adaptable to it, bringing the tempo down for that particular person, not necessarily for the entire group.

Annabelle White [00:21:16] Thank you. Brianna, in your research, you found there's a real lack of understanding amongst women and girls who use hormonal contraception. And also, their understanding of their own menstruation. What are the impacts of this?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:21:33] I think it's about we want to do everything we can to get people out exercising at a baseline level. And I'm, you know, same as I slip into athlete language. But I'm talking about anyone who's out exercising. And we want to give people the best opportunity to do that. And I think while people don't have a really good understanding of their bodies or the medication they're taking and how that might impact them, it can mean people opt out or even, you know, maybe retire from their sport early all of those sorts of things. So I think being able to work with our own body through, you know, menstrual cycle tracking in a practical sense, that could be like I've referred to earlier, it could be about speaking to someone early because you notice changes early. So I guess if you're thinking, you know, worst case scenario, a lack of understanding means you think that losing your period is a normal thing that happens when you train hard. Maybe you even think it's a positive thing. There's a lot of misconceptions out there, and that goes on for years and years and years. And you never get a diagnosis, you know, or you never get appropriate education around what might that be potentially causing that? And, you know, things like if we're talking about things like relative energy deficiency in sport that have really, you know, quite devastating health consequences sometimes. So it's really important to be aware of this stuff. And that sort of worst case scenario is about we want to catch people who are experiencing issues and help them, early, but also it's about being able to harness your own power. I always feel really good this this week of my cycle. I'm going to absolutely smash it at training. I'm going to whatever that is. Or, you know, I know that this is a week where I tend to to get a little bit, you know, a little bit sluggish or, I tend to get a bit of a bad back and some cramps on those couple of days. So I'm going to take some Panadol to training and make sure I've got, you know, a couple extra water bottles. And just having that, you know, that knowledge of your own body can make the whole process much more enjoyable. And I think, you know, without having specific numbers and data, I think you can keep people participating in sport where they might not otherwise. So I think that's why it's important.

Annabelle White [00:23:39] Thank you. Look, and you've spoken to it a little bit there. Sport can be a really positive place where we learn more about our bodies, we learn more about what we're capable of as women. How can coaches empower the participants that they're working with to better understand their body?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:23:58] I think by having this be part of the conversation is the first step and sort of following on from, you know, when know time before about using a bit of humor. And I think that's really important, particularly when you're communicating this stuff to to younger people. But I also think consistency is key. And just this making it part of the conversation. I've seen a lot of very well-meaning, you know, organisations or coaches get people like me in to do a workshop, but I don't know how impactful that is unless the conversations flow on from that. And I say in these workshops how awkward it is at the start and how, you know, you've got to work, you've got to work on it a little bit. There's a lot of taboo even in society with these topics as well. So I think having that consistency in the conversation and then through that, people get curious about their own bodies, you know, about what they're capable of, about when they feel best, and perhaps when they don't feel their best. And what support do I need? So I think that's the power. I think sport can be a real conduit. And, you know, if we can educate people through sport and then they go see a doctor and get, you know, get diagnosed with a health issue that that might have taken them longer. Well that’s great, that’s sport acting as a conduit to better health. So I think there's a real opportunity here for that as well.

Annabelle White [00:25:18] Thank you. Noella listening to Brianna, what is the importance to you as an athlete in understanding your body?

Noella Green [00:25:27] Its your body. Your body is your temple. Your body is what's going to get you the outcomes that you want. In relation to moving and moving right. So if you're not aware of what your body needs to move well or move at its optimal level, you're basically doing yourself a disservice. So to me, your body is your temple. Know what you need to do to fuel and perform well and do what you can to support that.

Annabelle White [00:26:01] And you've already spoken about some of the things that coaches can do to better empower the women and girls that they work with and create a culture of openness. But do you have anything to add on how coaches can create those positive environments?

Noella Green [00:26:15] Yeah. Look, I know we've probably mentioned this a couple of times already. And, Brianna, actually the word that really stood out with me is, is consistency when you're working with female athletes. You do have to do things a little bit different.

Annabelle White [00:26:31] Brianna, some coaches won't be able to relate with their athletes. With regards to their experiences of hormonal contraception or menstruation or whatever it is, whether they're male or personally, haven't had any issues with their cycle or for a range of other reasons. How can coaches leverage the experiences of people around them to create an open culture with their participants?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:26:54] Yeah, I mean, that is a really good point, and it's something that I've seen a lot of coaches say when they've been maybe nervous to have these conversations with the athletes or participants, as I just don't know about that. I, understand you know, that sort of push back. But I think. I think most coaches would agree that there's probably a lot of whether it's health issues, personal issues, things that the athletes that will experience, that they might not personally. And this is just another one of those. And you can still be empathetic and open and supportive of that, even if you haven't personally gone through that yourself. So I think it's important for coaches to feel, to realise I don't need to have gone through it. I don't need to have, you know, doctor level knowledge just to be able to be supportive. But I do think there is still power in leveraging people that can speak to these issues more intimately, those with lived experience. And in my experience, coming in and doing a lot of these educational workshops with different sports teams, the ones that have worked the best in terms of creating open conversations, you know, and getting athletes to feel comfortable asking questions, have had a lot of involvement from the more senior athletes and really having them lead some conversations potentially, if they're comfortable, obviously share some of their own experiences, and that just really sets the scene in the room or, you know, whatever the case may be, to just that, this is an okay thing to talk about. It kind of takes the pressure out of it. So I think that's another way of coaches are maybe feeling a little bit tentative on their own. They can maybe have some conversations with some of the older athletes, or the more senior athletes who who have maybe been comfortable and showed that comfort in speaking about these topics before and, and sort of use them as a way to make some of the other people feel more comfy.

Annabelle White [00:28:41] Why is lived experience so important when discussing these topics?

Dr Brianna Larsen [00:28:47] I think it's important because when you hear someone else describing an experience that maybe you thought was something that only you had gone through or you you know, I think people do have a lot of often shame about these things or concern that something isn't normal for them. And so I think it's very, very powerful to have someone speak to their own personal experience, but to be able to relate and resonate with that. And I think it makes people feel a lot, a lot less alone in what they're going through. So I think having those conversations and we do say in terms of I'm a scientist, I always go back to the research, sorry if that's boring, but we certainly say, you know, some studies show that there's not a lot of conversations between team-mates around the menstrual cycle. And it might be, like you said, not maybe it's around the level of athlete where they don't know or the sport might be specific to, but it does seem to be a bit of a mixed bag in terms of whether athletes or, you know, even recreational level sport participants feel comfortable having these conversations in a sport environment, the reasons why they report not talking to their coaches. And then that's a good place for coaches to sort of break down those barriers. And those often times are they don't know anything about it. They're not going to be able to help anyway. Or it's too awkward. So the three things that I think, okay, if, if, if you put yourself in, you know, we're talking to coaches here. If you're a coach, how can you break down those barriers and create that environment for that conversation even if you can't personally relate? So I think the awkwardness thing that comes down to consistency, just making this a part of the conversation, all the things that we've sort of talked about already that, oh, they're not going to be able to help anyway. Okay. Have some pathways, have some people that, you know, some referral pathways so that the athlete knows if they bring it to you. It's not just, okay. It's what can we do about this, you know, and, and there's, there's a pathway of support. And I think that is an issue that that's something that's not done well pretty much across the board. And I think, you know, it's probably another big thing we need to tackle as well as the education piece.

Annabelle White [00:30:52] Thank you Noella and Brianna both for sharing your personal stories, but also your valuable insights and knowledge today. Thanks for listening. To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the ASC Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is Annabelle White and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your Team-mates, fellow coaches and officials and friends. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.

Annabelle White [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Annabelle White. I'm joining you from Eora Country, and I am the Coaching Advisor for the Coaching and Officiating team at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Today we will be discussing ACL injuries. We will be discussing more about the injury itself and its prevalence amongst women and girls. We will explore the personal impact of the injury and discuss prevention strategies that coaches can implement into trainings and game days.

We are lucky today to welcome Brooke Patterson and Kamahl Cogdon to the podcast. Kamahl is an enthusiastic footy player who suffered an ACL rupture in 2022. She's yet to make her return to the field but has remained engaged in coaching positions at Blackburn Football and Waverly Park Hawks.

Brooke is a Physiotherapist and Research Fellow at La Trobe University Sport and Exercise Research Centre. Brooke is also a former AFLW player and development coach and has also suffered an ACL injury in her time.

To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. Brooke and Kamahl, we are thrilled to welcome two individuals to the podcast today who have both a wealth of experience, both personal and professional. Welcome.

Kamahl Cogdon [00:01:27] Thanks Annabelle.

Brooke Patterson [00:01:29] Thanks Annabelle. Thanks for having me.

Annabelle White [00:01:31] So, Brooke, in your work, you have researched ACL injuries amongst women and girls in sport both elite and in community settings. Can you explain what an ACL injury is?

Brooke Patterson [00:01:41] Yeah, sure. The ACL or the anterior cruciate ligament it's like a really tough ligament. Kind of like a rope that connects your shin bone to your thigh bone. And it's inside your knee joint. And essentially, without getting too technical, that helps keep your knee stable and it kind of events that shin bone from sliding forward and backwards and also rotating around a little bit. But what I think is important to know that it's only one of many ligaments inside and outside the knee that help keep the knee stable, as well as like your muscles as well help with stability. Which is why actually you might hear of some people who might be able to cope without actually needing surgery to repair a torn ACL, as they have those other structures that can help provide that stability. And when it gets injured, it's when essentially when the forces become too, too high, like kind of like a sprained ankle, but just inside the knee and the ligaments either strained or completely ruptured in half or it partially tears.

Annabelle White [00:02:39] Are there common ways that someone might tear their ACL?

Brooke Patterson [00:02:42] Yes. Well, the most common sports that we start there are when there's high speed running, cutting, pivoting and jumping. So if you think about all your different types of football codes, court sports such as netball, handball, basketball, skiing's another common one, outside of that team sport setting and they can occur kind of each motor vehicle accidents are in the workplace as well. But mostly we're talking about kind of team ball sports here today. So the majority of ACL injuries are what we call non-contact. So that means that there's no direct contact between the injured person and any other player or piece of equipment. So the typical one is, say, the player running out in open space, no one around them, and either changing direction or coming to like an abrupt stop or reacting to something that's happening on the field. And the knee just kind of collapses and they go down in, in a heap. Or they might be landing from one leg after a jump. So say a marking contest or receiving a pass, or from a header in soccer, or even just after kicking the ball, that kind of action of landing on one leg. So they are the non-contact situation. Some of the injuries are also what we called indirect contact. So quite similar situations on the field. But there is some contact from another player, whether it's the opponent or their teammate. So they might be going up for a mark or pass and they get a little slight bump in the air or on the way down. I guess the good thing about these indirect and non-contact injuries is that they tend to lend themselves to being more preventable, so they're often related to the way you know that the player is balanced when they land on one leg or the way they respond to contact in the air, or the way that their footwork is when they approach, a tackle or a contest. And then of course, those contact injuries. So, for example, when a player falls over another player's knee and kind of pushes it inwards. And for these mechanisms, sometimes there isn't too much we can do about it. And we know that injuries are just a part of sport. But we also know that the benefits of sport, usually outweigh, those, those risks. So I think for those contact injuries, I think we can still think about the stronger, more skilful the player in their sport and more aware of the things that are around them. They can potentially still avoid some of those situations. Like, you know, the way that they stand up in the tackle or roll with the tackle, so that's the kind of three main mechanisms. I guess the only other thing to add is they're often in defensive situations. So if you're a coach and you're training a lot of offence and training and drills designed around offence, you might not actually be exposing the players to the defensive reactive situation. So obviously when you've got the ball, you're a little bit more in control of what's happening. But if you're reacting and defending, that's when a lot of these injuries happen as well.

Annabelle White [00:05:27] Kamahl I’ll come to you. You suffered an ACL injury playing a sport that you loved a few years ago. Tell us about your injury.

Kamahl Cogdon [00:05:34] Yes, I did a complete rupture of my left ACL in my left knee. I was one of those unlucky people who mine was a contact injury. So I was being tackled and I thought it was really interesting what Brooke said about learning to roll with the tackle. I think in hindsight, I tried to stand up through the tackle and keep running. Probably not having had enough training along how to, yeah, how to roll and how to go with the tackle. So I did feel that pop, almost like a release. I didn't hear it, but I felt it, and it was almost that itself didn't seem painful, but by the time I hit the ground, it was excruciating. I also tore my meniscus. So, I think there was a lot of pain with that. I had two meniscal tears. And I just, I was carried off to the off of the, the grounds and sat on the side of the, of the the oval and watched the rest of the game in quite a lot of pain, until somebody came and picked me up and took me off to hospital and, and then the the rest is history, I suppose. I had surgery two weeks later. Again, in hindsight, I'm not sure if that was that was necessarily the best thing to do. I had a hamstring graft and it's been a pretty, torturous rehab for me unfortunately, it's, taken quite some time. I've had a few ups and downs which, you know, you kind of expect it's we know, recovery is not linear. And everyone says that to you when you, when you set out on the recovery journey. But, it those, those highs are quite good. But the lows can be quite deep too. So it's been very challenging. But, I'm coming through the other end slowly.

Annabelle White [00:07:19] Brooke, listening to Kamahl's story, what would put someone at a higher risk of suffering an ACL rupture or injury?

Brooke Patterson [00:07:26] Yeah. So it's the $65 million question, Annabelle. There's lots of, I guess, different factors that play into someone's risk of sustaining any injury. And in particular ACLs, there's, a big variety of factors that might play into it. But the only kind of two factors that we have strong scientific scientific evidence for is being female, born a female, and having a previous ACL injury. So it's like any injury, if if you've had one of them, you know, you're risk for having another one is is fairly, a lot higher than the rest. The other one that's probably close behind that with some moderate evidence is family history. But unfortunately, all those things I'm listing off, we can't do much about, which, is no good for coaches, no good for athletes. But there are a whole other range of things, that we can kind of modify that have shown some links to, to injury risk as well. So if we think about, you know, the way that people move, you know, their muscle strength and control, your training schedule or your training load or any training plans, footwear and ground, body weight, your general like, health and well-being and kind of all the things impacting the immediate athlete on the, on the field that we can modify with coaching and training. And then there's all the things on the outside of the field. So, if we think about that being that the training environment, the competition environment, the coaches, that the clubs, the leagues and how they can actually influence what's going on in the field. And so that's kind of access to resources and education that can actually help, that athlete, you know, minimise all of those potential risk factors.

Annabelle White [00:09:14] Brooke, you mentioned being born female is going to put someone at a higher risk of suffering this kind of injury. And we've seen a lot in the news of high-profile athletes like Ellie Carpenter, Sam Kerr, Katrina Gorry suffering these injuries in the last few years. The NRL saw ten season ending knee injuries, and nine AFL players in the 2023 season tore their ACL. What does put women at a higher risk of suffering this injury?

Brooke Patterson [00:09:44] If we think about the things that we can't modify, we'll kind of knock them off first, is the, some of the anatomy factors. So women have potentially, some women, have different size and shaped, ligaments and, and bony structure. There's some thought around hormonal changes as well at certain times of the month. There might be a change in, in your collagen, which is in your ligaments, and that might put you at greater risk. Again, when we go and talk to to coaches, about these because it's a common question, right. We try and kind of get away from that notion that it's, and it's more than hips and hormones. That the hips, you might have heard as well is, because we've got kind of wider childbearing, keeps the angle of the thigh bones coming down, kind of puts more strain on the knee. So we try and we put a big slide up saying it's more than hips and hormones because that's what you hear in the media a bit. And we try and talk about all those other things like the movement patterns, the muscle strain, the training load and the plans and and getting the resources and the support around women. Those injury rates, I guess, have probably been there for a long time in terms of women being greater risk. It's just getting more and more attention now. And I think the professionalism of those competitions are going up, which is great, but that also means they're running at higher speeds. They're putting more load through their bodies.

Annabelle White [00:11:08] Kamahl listening to Brooke, then, particularly around the environmental factors that she's listed that put women at a higher risk of suffering injury to any of those resonate with you and your experience?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:11:17] Yeah, definitely. When I first saw my surgeon, I’ll just throw this in, he actually said that, women were keeping him in business. So that's how prevalent it is out there. It's not something I really wanted to hear at the time. But, but in terms of, I guess, the environment, my preparation at the time probably wasn't at its peak. I just it was a post-season, competition that we just thought we'd enter for fun. And I'd been away. I'd had five weeks overseas eating cheese and drinking wine and, not doing very much running. So I came back and thought, oh, why not? I'll play round robin of three games. And I think it was the second time that I was injured in, so definitely, I mean, some of that falls on the athlete themselves to, to prepare as best they can. But I think there's also a lot that, club land can do to support that. As I said before, I don't think certainly in my case, I don't feel that I had, I mean, we practised, tackling, of course, but never it was always as the tackler, not the person being tackled. So there were gaps, from my knowledge, missing. So there's that. And strength and conditioning was never like, and you know, yes, a lot of the girls do go to the gym. And I always thought for me, my game, I built my game around my running. So I was playing on the wing and I could run all day, so I was really, really fit. But I just thought, oh, the gym's kind of, you know, that's not really for me. I'm all about running. And in hindsight, I now, I mean, I always knew, but I didn't appreciate fully how important that strength and conditioning could be.

Brooke Patterson [00:13:09] You picked up on something, Kamahl, that I didn't, I kind of forgot to mention. Is that, yeah, sport-specific skill. So particularly, I think for the football codes where we're seeing these [at] higher rates. They are sports that women and girls haven't played traditionally in their formative years. And even if they are playing in their formative years, I mean, you know, under twelves onwards, even before that, this is a societal thing. They come into that organised sport setting already playing catch up because and the way that they develop is physically different to boys. So you touched on the ability to kind of roll and fall. We see that really commonly and in girls in particular, not being able to kind of go to ground and be confident to just fall on the shoulder of the body. And so they leave the arm out or the legs kind of get all caught up. So, yeah, they just, you know, just in society, girls don't kind of wrestle and roll around as, as much as boys, through through school as well. So I think that's a big reason why we're seeing those differences in injury rates as well.

Annabelle White [00:14:11] So, Kamahl, you started your footy career a few years ago, you mentioned to me on the phone, can you tell us a bit more about what drew you to the sport?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:14:19] Sure. Yeah. I was definitely a late bloomer, late to come to football. And that's probably because I think, I always joke that I was born 30, 30 years too early. If I was just a little bit younger, I think I would, you know, I would have been, playing football a lot sooner than in my late 40s. So I was very much a very sporty kid in the 1970s, but never, ever allowed to even entertain the idea of playing football, despite the fact that every lunchtime and recess I would be out there with the boys kicking, you know, that, kick to kick and taking speckies on my sister when I made his sort of kneel down in the backyard and things like that, I was just never allowed to play. So eventually I did find my way to footy, and I loved it. I just loved it. I felt like I was living my childhood dream every time I ran out there. It was. Yeah, it was just amazing. And it was, I miss, I still miss it. Like, I miss it every every week. Every every time I see my team run out, every time I see the under sixteens run out, I'm standing on the sidelines, sort of almost twitching to get back out.

Annabelle White [00:15:31] Kamahl, what drew you to footy in the first place?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:15:36] I've always loved footy. I've always been a mad Collingwood supporter and I just always wanted to play. It was just as I said, I was a really sporty kid, just so keen to play. And because I was never allowed it, I sort of just put it on the backburner for so long. And then when the opportunity arose, one of one of my girlfriends had actually joined the club, and she said, come down, come down. So I did, and I just, I just I loved it from the moment I stepped out there, put on the boots and, you know, I felt like a real player. It was rather funny. But, so I always knew I would love playing the game because I had watched the game and loved watching the game, so that didn't surprise me. I knew I would love it, but I guess what did surprise me was how much I loved being part of the team, and I, I played netball, I'd done all that, you know, softball at school, I played indoor cricket when I was an adult. And, you know, I had done team sports before. But there's something about football and putting your body on the line, I think, and the camaraderie that you have with your teammates, because there is something at stake when you go out there like it, it hurts to, you know, to get tackled, to get bumped off a ball, you know, to try and take a mark. It's it's the most challenging but rewarding experience I’ve ever had in sport.

Annabelle White [00:17:02] You mentioned that you just, you loved the sport the second you put your footy boots on that first time. So when you think about your life before AFL compared to now, what has playing the sport really brought to your life?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:17:16] Yeah, just being part of a club. It's it's yeah, really awesome to feel. It's that belonging I think we've, we've, yeah, something all women can relate to. I think we're really good at doing that when we're surrounded by a group of other women who appreciate the same things that we do. You find your tribe, I suppose. And that's the thing that I was surprised how much I really loved that, how much I needed that. The most awesome feeling to know that you're out there working as a team to hopefully have a win. But honestly, we've come off the grounds at the end of some huge thumpings and we've been the ones getting thumped and we are just as up as if we've done, you know, we've had a ten goal win because we just loved being out there, just having a go and trying something that a lot of people all our lives in at Masters level anyway, when we were younger, told us we would never do and we shouldn't do. And so we're sort of going, well, we are doing it and we're loving it, and no one's going to stop us except for an ACL.

Annabelle White [00:18:17] Kamahl 18 months ago, you were playing in an off-season friendly match when you tore your ACL. Can you tell us about that moment when you went down to the ground and you knew that this was a significant injury?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:18:30] Yeah, it didn't hurt. I didn't get that rush of pain initially. I did feel that pop. It was like a gentle release, I suppose. And so therefore, when I hit the ground, I was hopeful that it wasn't an ACL. It was very painful when I hit the ground though as as in not landing on the ground, but by the time I hit the ground, my knee was it was excruciating. And I did that, that classic sort of grasp for your knee. Almost in a foetal position because you're in so much pain. I, I assumed it was my meniscus because of the pain, because I'd heard stories about people basically having that really, you know, that sharp sensation of pain and then getting up and almost wanting to run off the ground. And that didn't happen to me. So I sat on the sidelines and I just sat there in excruciating pain. And by the time I went, by the time I had the diagnosis and went to the surgeon and was presented with the options, which was, well, if you want to play sport, if you want to continue sport, really surgery is the way to go, if you're happy not to play sport and hang up your boots and retire. And it wasn't just footy like it would be, you know, potentially any sport or even sometimes people can't walk properly because their knee gives way. So, you know, if I wanted to do any travelling or anything like that. Surgery seemed to be the best option for me. Following surgery, I remember waking up and it was I've had I've had children, so it was akin to childbirth, the pain. It was next level. And that probably, you know, it did subside a little. But I think it took probably ten days to really, for the pain to sort of be manageable.

Annabelle White [00:20:21] Brooke, Kamahl has spoken a little bit about that moment when she knew that she was injured, but she didn't necessarily know that it was an ACL injury. A little bit of hope there that it was another, maybe a less significant injury. Is this common amongst participants, coaches, volunteers, in particularly, in community sport? Regarding having a lack of understanding of the injury.

Brooke Patterson [00:20:44] Yeah. As I mentioned, often the pain subsides and you feel, you know, relatively normal. So it's not until you go to the physio, the sports doctor, and you have the ACL test and they might be able to feel it. You do often see on the TV, them doing pulling on the shin, it's the ACL test. But often even that is hard to tell. So it's often not until you kind of get referred to the MRI and don't have the MRI, which can can take some time for community athletes that actually get that confirmation. And so that time waiting can be hard. Not knowing what I kind of wanted to pick up on, on what, Kamahl was saying about an injury in that immediate management is that there's no disadvantages of having that delay. And I, I think particularly for community athletes where, potentially, you know, time isn't, time is always a factor for everyone, but there's no disadvantages in terms of, you know, damaging the knee further. You know, as long as you're being sensible and looking after yourself and having a bit of a delay, and in fact, if you do a little bit of what we call pre-rehab or some some physio on some strengthening and some range of movement stuff before surgery, those people actually recover better. So I think there's that thought that, you know, you just have to go and get booked in straight away. That's going to be the best. So that was the first thing I wanted to kind of mythbust I guess. And then the other thing is that surgery is the only option. Certainly, there's some kind of early evidence to suggest that some people can cope without having surgery straight away. And most of these, is in, in Scandinavia and that about one third, in these studies can actually cope without having surgery. And can I just say Kamahl I love listening to your description of why you love sport and why you love footy, and why you've got into coaching. A lot of that, resonates with me, but I think. The, for the listeners hearing that seeing hearing your passion and you're obviously now, you know rehabing to want to get back and I think too many too often particularly women and particularly women who are a little bit older, it might be just like, oh, you know, don't bother. You know, you're not going to get back to sport or, you know, the the bar is often lowered, I think a little bit. So I just, you know, 100% love your passion and motivation. I think it's inspiring for everyone to, to listen to and coaches to be like, right now, we've got to keep these women on the field and we've got to educate them involved as well.

Kamahl Cogdon [00:23:17] Thank you. Yeah, look, I definitely feel I've encountered that too, that I think people I think, the experts that are on some of the experts that I've consulted, I've had some great support, don't get me wrong. But there had been some who I think have thought, why would you bother? You you know, you're now in your 50s. Well, you know, well, what are you going to get out of having surgery and, and why would you want to get back on the footy field.

Annabelle White [00:23:45] Kamahl, you've spoken about the opportunity to remain engaged in your club in coaching positions. Do you think that's helped you feel like you still belong as part of the club, maybe lessened those feelings of isolation?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:24:00] Now, yes. At the time, I found going back to the club really difficult. I didn't have so much of an issue coaching the under 16s because I was never involved as a player with them. I was always the coach, so that was easier. That was a, a continuation of what what had already been in place. But going back to the club, as a like, an injured player who was definitely out for at least one season and sort of, you know, sort of, dancing around the edges of what was happening because I couldn't get that involved even at training. I could give advice and I could, you know roll a ball, a handball, maybe, but I couldn't, I wasn't very hands on. I couldn't be I was, you know, it's just wasn't possible for quite a long time. So yes, it was good, but it was also hard because it was a reminder of what you didn't have.

Annabelle White [00:24:57] Do you have any recommendations for coaches who are maybe working with participants who have suffered a significant injury and how they can make them still feel like they're part of those teams?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:25:09] Yeah, definitely. My, the coach who coaches our Masters team is fantastic. He is always asking me for, you know, what I think about, this, this drill or did I want to add something to, you know, the halftime address or the, the pre-game address? He's very inclusive. He knows that, I’ve, you know, through the ringer with the injury. So I think just keep including, including the player, basically, follow the lead a little bit because it is hard at the start, but I think, you know, just offering your support constantly, even if they're not accepting it at the time, that just keep just keep offering it because they're just probably going through some stuff in their own minds or in their own heads that maybe they're not quite in that spot yet, but knowing that that supports their even if you can't accept it at the time, is really important to know that it's there.

Annabelle White [00:26:08] Brooke, coaches certainly don't want to see their participants suffer these significant injuries. What can coaches do to try and prevent their participants suffering an ACL injury?

Brooke Patterson [00:26:19] Great question. I think there's probably that notion out there that, you know, they are just a part of sport and you can't prevent them that the scientific evidence would tell us otherwise. So there's what we call kind of neuromuscular training programs. So essentially, they're like a dynamic warm up where and then some strengthening exercises. And then some of the programs also have some of the sports-specific skills. So doing those things, can reduce ACL injuries by 40 to 60%. And this is from lots and lots of studies, hundreds of thousands of, you know, participants, across many years of research. And then what they do is kind of summarise in what we call systematic review. So there's some some good evidence out there that these programs do work. And, if I go into a little bit more detail without getting into the nitty gritty, but the warm up would be doing some balancing, doing some jumping and landing on one leg, getting a little bit of a push when you're in the air. So you get used to kind of landing, in awkward positions and being pushed. It's working on your footwork when you kind of sprint and then have to stop, change direction, cut. It's learning how to fall and roll. And then it's working on, on all the muscles in the core, in the lower limb that actually enable you to kind of cope with the demands of the game.

Annabelle White [00:27:36] So Brooke there's a wealth of resources out there for coaches who want to understand this injury better, and how they can prevent injuries within their teams. Do you have any favourite resources out there that coaches can review before their next training session?

Brooke Patterson [00:27:52] Yes. And most sports will have their own injury prevention program. So I'll put a lot of the links in the show notes, but say, Football Australia has the Perform Plus. Rugby Australia had the Activate program. And then in terms of, so that's prevention stuff, in terms of rehab the Melbourne ACL return to sport guide is a really good one. Just have an overview of the rehabilitation steps and the criteria that you need to achieve. The Super Knee program got some really good photos of different types of ACL rehab exercises. Jess Cunningham’s book, POP goes through experiences of elite Australian athletes and it just really humanises them as they talk through the challenges in their rehab. I think it can help community athletes understand that everyone's journey is different and not to compare themselves. And then one of your best resources is your local sport and exercise professional kind of come out and help you implement injury prevention or having a list of good professionals in the area that might specialise in ACL or it might be concussion. So you can refer your athletes to, to, people with that expertise.

Annabelle White [00:29:00] Kamahl what's helped you the most during your recovery?

Kamahl Cogdon [00:29:03] Definitely having my physio and trainer I think without them, I don't know where I'd be. My new physio has been amazing, as has my trainer Tom. He's just been by my side the whole time. They together work on a program for me that, is adjusted any time I sort of meet a milestone or I'm lacking in a particular area that shows up in tests, regular testing. To to have to do that independently by, like, just at home, by myself. I just don't know if I could have done it.

Annabelle White [00:29:39] So thank you Kamahl and Brooke both for your time. Some really valuable insights and information today.

Thanks for listening. To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the ASCs Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is Annabelle White and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your teammates, fellow coaches and officials, and friends.

This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Brooke Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with a special guest each episode, I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics. The theme for today's podcast is How you officiate, a modern approach to officiating. This includes preparing to officiate, decision-making and time management, all with a participant centred approach.

Today I'm joined by Cheryl Jenkins, who is the Australian Open Chief Umpire and Chief Umpire at Tennis Australia. From humble beginnings as a line umpire in the 1990s, her officiating experience has taken her around the globe to some of the world's biggest sporting events. She has officiated at all four Grand Slams, Commonwealth and Olympic Games. In addition, she's an educator with the International Tennis Federation and here in Australia supports the development of tennis officials from community level through to high performance. Thank you for joining us, Cheryl.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:01:15] Thank you Brooke. And I'd like to acknowledge that I'm coming from the lands of the Yugambeh people here in Brisbane.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:20] Fabulous. Thanks for that. So, Cheryl, can you start by telling us about your journey in sport, how you came to be an international tennis official? Tennis Australia and Australian Open Chief Umpire, and your current involvement from community through to international officiating.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:01:35] Oh my gosh. Well, I came a well come from a bit of a tennis family. So, tennis was that the sport that we all played even though we all did other sports as kids? Tennis was the, the common sport. So even grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. It was definitely the family sport. And so, my dad actually, through his work, started officiating at Milton. And one of the guys there got it, got dad involved. Then I got my turn to be a ball girl, you know, at Milton as well. And then I guess my brothers and as we got older, moved into officiating and there's like, oh, you know, I get to the age of, you know, towards the end of high school, part time job. One more. We're going to tennis courts anyway, so I might as well start officiating to get some extra money, pocket money on the side. I then could see some people that I really admired in officiating. Donna Kelso is one who's a WTA supervisor. We became good friends when I was still ball girl, and we're still friends today, and I admired her because she was a line umpire and I could see her be a chair umpire, started travelling the world. I'm like, oh, that sounds cool. I'd like to do that and watch all the awesome things that she would do. And I guess that was kind of my then role model. When time came to think about family, it was like, oh, I still want to do stuff. So juggled chair umpiring and babies for a little while, and then I was like, okay, I need something else. And so, why I went down the chief umpire pathway. So that's where the management side now of officials comes into it, a more the education side as well. So yeah, just from humble beginnings at Redcliffe to now I get to, to travel the world at times and yeah be off to Wimbledon in a couple of weeks.

Brooke Kneebush [00:03:15] What a great journey and thank you for sharing that and that element of family and doing it with your, your brothers and your dad, that is such a massive part of sport, and it's really fabulous when families get to enjoy this sport together.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:03:29] It is, and it's something I see people who tend to be in it longer have all had some sort of family connection, and it's just not only your personal family, but then you also then create friendships that become like family of people that you progress with. So, I also have a couple of fellow female officials that, we went through our white badge school together, our bronze badge school together, travelling the world together. And yeah, still mates. You know, we don't live in the same place, but, you know, we’re still mates and we still catch up. And yeah, we're actually trying to arrange a catch-up during Wimbledon qualifying now.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:06] Wow. Friends for life. And amazing that you were able to juggle parenthood, motherhood, alongside all that as well. And actually we’re branching into my next question, really. So, you you've been involved in officiating for over 30 years. You've talked about those friendships and the travel. What are some of the other reasons that you do it? Why do you keep coming back, and what motivates you to be the best that you can be?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:04:30] I think to be honest, it's the people that you come across and meet because I guess officiating, that's what brings us together. But we all come from different walks of life. You know, officiating is our common purpose. But, you know, there's teachers, there's doctors I've met FBI agents. You know, all these crazy people like, you know, crazy as in, like, awesome things that they do. Scientists, you know, really intelligent people. And what do we love to do? We love to be on a tennis court and officiate and at times call a ball in or out.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:03] Actually, it's interesting you say those people from all those different professions because I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg, because sometimes the skills of officiating that you develop while you're being educated and learning and practising officiating can really contribute to those other aspects of your life as well.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:19] So I think there are lots of skills we can learn in our other life that then translate across well into being a good official, and that could be across all sports to be honest, not just tennis.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:29] And not just officiating either, could be coaching or could be as a player or athlete.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:34] Exactly.

Brooke Kneebush [00:05:35] So again, you've started to touch on, on some of this, but I imagine it can be really quite demanding physically and mentally to, to be an official, whether it's at community level or at that peak international level. What are some of those demands on officials, and can you give us a bit of a, an idea of what goes on when you're officiating at a community event?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:05:59] So for us, when we talk about community level, we call that competitive play in tennis. So that's a local weekend tournament that you'll, you'll see. I think that the physical demands there for officials is, what people may not realise is those officials can be on the ground from eight hours to 12, ten hours to 12 hours to 14 hour days and then back up the next day and do it again. And depending on the number of days of the tournament, you can do it over four days back-to-back. And that's long hours standing outside in the weather. So yes, we may not be running physically on a, on a field like they do in some other sports or on a court, but then on those sports, they just go to do that match and usually leave, whereas we're there for the whole day. So yeah, so that can be quite hard for officials, and you know, think about out there, 30 plus degrees heat here in Brisbane 90% humidity most days, it feels like. So that can be physically quite draining but draining obviously in a different way, so that can be tough for officials.

Brooke Kneebush [00:07:00] I imagine there are times when you need to diffuse potentially volatile situations. What type of I guess skills does an official need and how do they need to engage with the participants before something happens, or if they do need to diffuse a situation like that?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:07:18] I guess it's just understanding what's happened. We, we do have rules in place that, you know, for non-umpired matches of of sets that they can follow as a, as a guide to help them work through a problem. Quite often it can be the kids have lost the score. How do we resolve actually what the score is, or the other one will be. They're deciding whether the ball is actually in or out. And obviously they disagree. So, it's going through the process of how we resolve that. So, there are some, some steps in place to help them work through that. So, it's not so bad. I guess one of the biggest challenges can be at times, very helpful parents who are very passionate about their children, and it's how they manage keeping the parents calm while the kids go out there and enjoy their game. So that can be a tough one, because when you step onto the court, that can be an easy thing to resolve because there's a very clear process of what they need to do. Whereas sometimes the hard stuff can actually happen off court and they need to resolve that.

Brooke Kneebush [00:08:19] And is their opportunity to engage with the stakeholders, whether it be the the players or the spectators or the other organisers of the event, to perhaps set a scene, try and establish a culture where everyone's respectful of each other.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:08:35] They are at the community level, competitive play level. It's very there's a lot of conversations that can just happen organically around the courts. You know, even starts with just saying hello and I guess becomes that familiar face. Oh, there's Brooke again. She said it this week. Oh, this, you know, you know, become that familiarity of seeing someone and then that builds rapport, builds respect. And you move on from just the hello conversation to oh how how's you know Tom playing today. You know, it can just grow organically. And you know and I think that's always nice to see when those, respect grows both ways of you know at that can be community play level.

Brooke Kneebush [00:09:16] And I mentioned that rapport could be really great for the players to have that familiar face. If they've got some nerves, it might be reassuring for them to see someone that they're familiar with.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:09:28] Absolutely. And I guess if they're going through a tough time, it might be someone that they can just go and confide in that's, you know, not Mum or Dad or the coach. It's just someone different. And I think that's, that's important for the kids to know that the officials are there helping to create that safe environment for them, not just on the court, but also off the court as well.

Brooke Kneebush [00:09:47] That's actually a part of the role of officials at that community level, that education element for the participants or for the players, isn't it? Because sometimes they're still learning the rules and they'll come across situations they haven't experienced before.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:10:02] It's very much an education process because you could be at a tournament one week, and you may have people who've been playing tournaments for a year, but you could have someone there on their very first day. So, it is constant education, and I think that's probably a driver of why people keep coming back to it, because, oh, now I get to help someone else. But it's not just the kids, it's also the parents. Because for the parents, this is, for many of them, a whole new world. Like a lot of them don't come from a tennis background. So yes, so there is a lot of education, not just on the rules, but also just etiquette in general.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:38] For sure. Now, can you tell me a little bit about a routine that an official might have, even at that international level, perhaps there's some things that people at the community level could learn from that.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:10:50] So I know some of our top chair umpires, some of them would like to go to a very quiet corner before the match. And they will go through, I've got my coin, you know, I've got all the tools that they need for their job, which is obviously very relevant also at the community level as well. You also need all your tools to your job, whether that's your coin, you whistle, you tape measure whatever you need. You need to make sure you have that routine. If I go back to myself, one of my things was always, have to go to the toilet for each match because you don't want to get out there for a long match and be like, oh, I should have gone for only in the first set. I'm still here for another couple of sets. That's part of what a chair umpire will do. But some are happy to, to have conversations in the lounge and, and then just go straight to their match. Others that will go and find a quiet corner, gather their thoughts, especially before those big matches and then go and do their job. But, but they are very professional and it's actually quite amazing to watch them. And I guess one thing we also do in Australia, which to my knowledge, we're the only ones who do this, is we also have, a sports psychologist who comes and joins us, and it's actually nice to watch the chair umpires, whether they're Australian or the internationals, all go and take and have a conversation with John whether that's in the, the umpires lounge or they go for a walk and have a coffee. But and I think that's one of the things we like to do for our officials to help with their wellbeing. And looking after them is provide that opportunity. And we also do that for our Australian officials year-round - access to, to a sports psychologist. I think it's just around having someone who's a bit removed from the sport and from the day-to-day runnings of things, just for you to just go have a conversation. Hey, I experienced this. Do you have some other strategies of how I could have handled it that are not necessarily tennis related? But I guess it comes back to those people skills that we were talking about earlier, conflict management. Because conflict management is not just a sport thing that's life. So, it's made some of those life skills that John can help them navigate through.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:54] What a great resource to have. Let's talk now about decision making, because I think what spectators often don't realise is that officials look like they're just sitting there not doing much. And yet there's a lot going on in their mind and there are so many decisions actually taking place, but there's only a few that actually get called because the official has decided it's not requiring a call. Do you have a routine? I imagine it's become kind of gut instinct by now, but a routine that you sort of follow to make and process decisions?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:13:29] Absolutely a routine. There's a routine that we educate officials, like those who are training to be chair umpires on, on the routine of how you start the point. You know from watching the server at the beginning, watching the feet, checking the ball, so there is very much a routine and within that routine, there's lots of decisions that need to be made. You know, when do you stop watching the server to check track ball at the net, to watch the ball, to then make sure you haven't missed the foot fault if you're the only chair umpire. There's a lot of things that, yeah, like you said, will happen instinctively, the more experienced you have. Decision-making, whether that's, you know, it can be even competitive play. The decision can be for the referee and the supervisors. Do I stand near courts two and three to observe those plays? Or do I need to go to court four and five? So there's a lot of things of just understanding what's the feel for the sport, for the match at that time and that, that goes across all sports, I think. So, it's not just the, the chair umpire on court having to decide, you know, the player is starting to bounce the racket. Is that racket abuse or is it. You know what. Brooke. Can you just keep your racket in your hand? A conversation at the change of ends? Or does it need to be a code violation? So, there will be lots of subtle things. Do we just need to say, hey, Brooke, just hold on to your racket. Or do we need to, you know what? You've gone too far - straight to the code violations. But. And that can also happen as a competitive play. And, the supervisor might go up to the fence and say, hey, Brooke, you might need to keep your racket in your hand. So, anything can happen on the big match as well. So lots of subtle things that will happen that people won't see. And the more experience you have, the more you'll become aware of when to step in and when not to.

Brooke Kneebush [00:15:21] So there's a lot that you have to think about, but even when you are as prepared as you can be, I can imagine whether it's standing there for 10 or 12 hours or eight hours a day, or sitting in the chair in the beating sun, that it could be really easy to become fatigued and perhaps lose concentration even. Have you got some tips on how you maintain the stamina to keep pushing through and stay focused despite all of that?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:15:52] I think if I'm looking at community player level, I think it's just being constantly present around the courts and walking around the courts like don't stay stationary. I think that that's becomes your downfall. Just, you know. And it's that balance of, I think, for our local referees of knowing when to step onto the court and when not to. Which is a bit of a balancing act. At the high level, one little trick I used to have in my court bag, little mints. So sometimes you need that little sugar, little fix. I think it's about people identifying for themselves. What is it I need to do for me to help me get through my day? Is it? Do I need to drink more water? Do I need to maybe have a sports drink? Because, I feel I’m losing, I’m sweating a lot. I need to replenish some, some salts in my body. Also, as a chair umpire at the change of ends, you'll get the moment after everything thing’s calmed down. You may get 20s or so. Wiggle your toes in your shoes. Stretch, you know, give you feel a little, you know, think about sitting in an aeroplane, which we quite often do. You know how they teach you to do your little foot exercises to stretch around? You can do those little things, you know, stretch your shoulders, turn. So, there's subtle little things you do. Obviously, you can't get out of the chair and do, you know, ten star jumps. But there’s little movements you can do in the chair to, to keep you alert.

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:14] Great, great advice. Thank you. Now we were talking about line umpires, and it occurred to me that technology is increasingly becoming a part of tennis. Can, can you tell me a little bit about the different technologies that have been introduced over your time in tennis?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:17:31] In my time, we've had the old Cyclops, which was a beam that just went across only the service line, but obviously the biggest one that most people at the professional level will identify with is the live ELC, so electronic line calling. Which is obviously now when it's a live version, replaces line umpires. But there's also still the version with, the challenge system when we still have line umpires on court. At the community level, we have equipped many of our referees with body cameras, and this is a camera that hangs around the neck and it's there that, you know, if a dispute were to get, you know, significantly enraged. And right then it comes down to the vision. Not just what the referee said, not just what say a parent said. Because quite often, it's usually the more emotional conversations tend to be happening off the court. And it's to help deter those conversations and just calm people down. But it also means that if that situation gets escalated to the tribunal, we now have video footage to be able to decipher exactly what happened. It's actually been quite a positive thing because it's actually really helped to calm down many situations that perhaps in the past would have escalated.

Brooke Kneebush [00:18:53] And ultimately, it's about the players.

Now let's have a think about reflection. So, you mentioned that your officials do have access at times to a psychologist, but often and particularly at the community level, we need to manage our wellbeing ourselves, but also our professional development, our personal growth and reflection’s a really powerful way for officials to prioritise themselves in that way. How do you reflect yourself on your officiating and what benefit have you seen it to be over your career?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:19:27] I'm a bit of an old school girl. I'm a paper and pen diary girl. So I even during the Australian Open. I'm always walking around with a notebook and pen and just jotting down things because I find if I get to the end of the day, I'll be like, oh, what was that I meant to write down? So, I'm very much writing things down. And that's not just for my own self-reflection. It's also things that I think about. Oh, that worked well today. We need to remember that for next time or, or something's happened during the day. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. How do we improve that for the following day? Or is it something that we need to note down for the report at the end? This happened. We need to problem solve a solution for next year. So yeah, I'm very much - write things down and it's probably something I do encourage officials to do. Obviously, the younger generation, maybe it's writing it down direct onto their phones or onto their computers, and that's okay. I think whatever's going to work for you, I do think it's important to write things down, whether that's electronically or handwriting. And you go back and reflect on it and go. And I think one thing I like to say to be, yes, you make a decision. Walk away afterwards and go - did that work out well, or what could I have done better next time? I think it's about people asking themselves, what could I have done differently? And maybe sometimes there is nothing you could do differently and that's actually okay. But if there is a learning opportunity in there, take that opportunity and maybe go speak to someone else. Hey Phil, this happened on this day. This was my decision. Is there anything different I could have done? I think I do say to people that the dumb question is the one you don't ask. And I really think that's because sometimes people are afraid to ask a question, which I think’s sad. I think just ask it. You may not always like the answer you get, because it may differ from what you had hoped you would hear. But I think it's really important to ask questions because that will really help with your learning.

Brooke Kneebush [00:21:30] And I love the way you talked also about reflecting on the things that did go well, because sometimes we can always revert to the things that didn't go so well and really beat ourselves up over it. But actually, we probably did a whole lot of really great things as well.

Cheryl Jenkins [00:21:44] Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, you beat yourself up over that one decision that maybe yes, it did escalate, but then you've already made four other that were awesome or, you know, whatever it may be, maybe you've made 20 decisions prior that were fantastic. So yes, take the learnings from that one and then apply it to the rest, and then you'll do just fine.

Brooke Kneebush [00:22:06] Great. Now finally, while officiating can be challenging at times, it's also really rewarding and, that that's really why we do it. Is there one really rewarding experience that you've had as an official that you wanted to share with our audience?

Cheryl Jenkins [00:22:23] You know, I get little buzzes out of watching, especially the new officials come through, and then they achieve their goals, and they get really excited. I guess that's probably where I'm at now, is watching now the next generation come through and helping them and, and even going off to China a few years ago and, and helping someone the first year be an assistant. And then the next year she got to the school and progress. So yeah. So, the idea was always to go get her to be a chief umpire. So it was nice watching that, taking her from, from her P, from her L plates to her P plates to Open plates. You know, I guess that's probably the way to put it. So that's always nice when you get to have those moments. Listen, I'm quite fortunate in my officiating journey that there's been lots of nice moments along the way. And. I'm pretty lucky.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:13] Great. And I can see and hear in your voice how passionate you are, and also appreciative of the opportunities that you've had through officiating. So, thank you for sharing your time with us, Cheryl, and for your insights into the theme of How you officiate, a modern approach to officiating. And thank you to our audience for listening.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:34]To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission's officiating web page. I'm Brooke Kneebush and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:53] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Brooke Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with special guests each episode. I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics.

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:33] The theme for today's podcast is how you improve, including a modern approach to officiating, continuous learning, reflection, coping, and thriving. Today I'm joined by Kay Robinson, who is the National Wellbeing Manager, Refereeing at Football Australia, where she works with officials, leaders and stakeholders to drive positive change and support the wellbeing of officials. Thanks for joining us, Kay.

Kay Robinson [00:00:53] Thanks, Brooke. Really excited to be here. I'm speaking to you from Djarawong nation and looking forward to embracing the Aboriginal tradition of storytelling through our podcast today.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:04] Fabulous looking forward to it. So, Kay, you hold quite a unique position with football Australia. It's a role not commonly found in national sporting organisations. Can you tell us about your role?

Kay Robinson [00:01:16] Absolutely. So, I'm National Wellbeing Manager for the Referees at Football Australia and that stems from the elite level where I offer support to our elite panel of referees on the A-leagues as well as the Referee Department and also do some work trying to promote wellbeing in our community referees.as well. I've come from a sports physio background, so I've had a career in sport, and I guess it was kind of linked to my wellbeing that made me have a little bit of a transition moving away from the travel associated with sports physio and also really the, the time I did spend travelling really kind of grew my interest in athlete and sport wellbeing and it's given me the great opportunity to introduce a wellbeing strategy in an area that doesn't have many wellbeing strategies in officiating. So, the role is a combination of one-to-one support with our, our panels as well as group development and a bit of staff development. And working into some policies that can support the wellbeing of everyone involved in refereeing. So really try and take a bit of a departmental and systems approach. So that means that it's not just one person there for wellbeing, it should be the system provides good wellbeing support.

Brooke Kneebush [00:02:34] That's great because the wellbeing of officials right through from community level to high performance is also important. So, Kay, the role of the official extends well beyond applying the rules of the sport. The best officials are participant centered, emotionally intelligent, excellent communicators, quick and accurate decision makers, and uphold high ethical standards. And these are just some of the attributes expected of officials. So, to keep on top of all of these requirements, it makes sense that continuous learning is central to modern officiating. How can continuous learning impact officials’ wellbeing, and what type of skills can officials work on to contribute to their own positive wellbeing?

Kay Robinson [00:03:17] So important and probably a shift that we've seen in officiating, particularly in the recent years, as we bring in wellbeing and the importance of that, that growth mindset and it's so much more about more than the technical black and white these days is much more around managing the game and communications as well. Refereeing can be so all-encompassing and demand so many commitments, so I think wellbeing can sometimes be looked at as a little bit fluffy. But there's such strong links to performance and that health and wellbeing grounding is crucial, but it's really important that they have the mindset to be able to overcome obstacles like with, with athletes on the field, the selection obstacles they might make poor, might have a bad game and, and using that reflection and opportunities for growth is really crucial so that they can, can see those things rather than a bad game as actually a learning experience and moving forward. And I think it's really important with all this that we can work on doing this together, as a team. Officiating can be really isolating and so how we can work to promote this amongst each other and amongst our team is, is pretty important too.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:32] Great. And you've raised some really important points there. Let's look more closely at this growth mindset to start with. So, a growth mindset begins with understanding self. Why is it important for referees or any officials really to have good self-awareness? And what does that involve and, and how do you develop it?

Kay Robinson [00:04:52] I think one of the first questions I ask a referee and I've done this from the start. Just trying to understand why people go into refereeing and officiating. We all know that no one's there waving a flag for the referees. There's very few people in the stands, maybe family and a few friends who are cheering for the referees, so there's gotta be a really intrinsic reason of why someone's out there. So, my first question to most referees that I work with is why? Why do you do it? And I think that, you know, that leads to so many other areas in our life to really understand our why gives us really good self-awareness and some of the examples I've seen that in referees being involved in a game they love. A lot of it's around leadership and being able to lead other people. Giving back to the game. There's a huge thing around connections as well. You know, you make lifetime friends, you make connections with the wider footballing societies. There's so many, many varied whys, but it's important to understand that for yourself is really important because that's why often links to your values and if things maybe aren't, aren't going your way, being able to draw someone back to why they're there and the foundations of doing it can sometimes help as a bit of a reset, particularly if they've had a bad couple of games, bad season or there’s other things going on in their life. And equally keep coming back to if their why is still there. So, I think obviously reflection is key. We go to that deeper kind of why. But on a day-to-day basis, being able to reflect on how you've done and that doesn't just have to be in a game, it's did I sleep well? Is there anything I can do better? Are there any resources I can look at and that's where I'm available to support people, find those resources as well. But a lot of the work's gotta be done by the individual to find out where they wanna go and I think change needs to be intrinsically motivated to be valuable to that person. It's no good me going around and telling everyone they've got to have a certain amount of hours sleep per night or do this specific recovery. But maybe I can prompt the questions or the areas that maybe, maybe need to be reflected on and help with that process, whether it's a match day reflection and sometimes that's minimising. Yeah, I know we've had some officials who will spend hours and hours reflecting, which actually probably isn't great for their wellbeing because it takes up time and it becomes a little bit of a chore. So we've looked with individuals and it's such a unique thing of what works best for them and how they can get the most out of it and whether it's talking it through, writing it down, there's so many ways, but it needs to be individual, but sometimes just a few little prompts to, to aid reflection or a few tools has been found to be really beneficial.

Brooke Kneebush [00:07:44] Yeah. And you talked about that sort of over reflecting and sometimes that can be a cycle of really dwelling on a negative which can't be good. We need to use that reflection to look at ways to, you know, perhaps improve on that next time. Can you suggest some other ways that people can reflect because as you said, it's a really individual thing and people should be doing what works for them.

Kay Robinson [00:08:07] Absolutely. And I think one of the first conversations I have is being realistic with time, I think we mentioned you can have, you can over reflect, but you can also then eat into other things that are really important to you, whether this be family time. So, I think it's understanding the time frame that you have available and being able to mold something into that. So, finding the tool or the process that's right for you and very rarely does that come as the first thing you try. I think goal setting is so powerful as well, because then you can, you can link your reflection and it's often easy to get those outcome goals. And I know with our panel it's often referee at a World Cup or become a FIFA referee, which are fantastic outcome goals. But there's so much outside your control. So, it's fine to have those overarching goals to be the best that you possibly can but then it's thinking about those processes and what, what's put in place to get those processes. So, I like to suggest a bit of a hierarchical goal system where it's fine to have those overarching and it doesn't always need to be a, an event. It can be a feeling almost or a dream that people want to go and then really try and break that down to processes. The processes right that might be to improve my physical training or meet a certain fitness test requirement and then breaking that down into smaller steps as well around how are you gonna do that? And it nothing's perfect. So, it's actually a more about effort or engagement rather than I'm going to do something this many times a week because curve balls come into life, we know that. Other techniques that kind of more practical things, obviously using footage. I know our, our referees use footage. There’s feedback from coaches, there’s potentially even using footage from different leagues and reflecting on how you would do decisions. There’s journaling. I know some, I think it's a love it or hate it side. Some people really like that, that writing down, and I find that often with feedback from our officials gives a little bit of closure. They write back something that potentially was a challenge, something that really went and a learning point and then almost actually, literally draw a line under it and go - that's what I’ve taken and now it's time to move on. I can't change anything that happened. However, I might take some of those learnings into the next game.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:33] Excellent. And I really like the way that you touched on when you're talking about process goals and not only those big target goals, but the engagement element. And I think that engagement with your stakeholders is such a massive part of officiating and can make such a difference to the way that your stakeholders feel about it, but also how you feel about it. Now you touched on the propensity sometimes of officials to dwell on mistakes, but unfortunately, sometimes we do make mistakes just like athletes do. That's, that's what sport is about and why we have officials, really. So how do you support football referees to manage at the time that they actually might make a mistake and then afterwards in in reflection?

Kay Robinson [00:11:16] Yeah. And as you say, it's so important in the refereeing world. All athletes make mistakes, but particularly in a team sport, life carries on. A referee can make a mistake and it it's in the headlines and talked about for the next little while, so I think that's where you know, wellbeing support’s crucial across the board, but a mistake shouldn't be a wellbeing issue if we're dealing with it well because as you say, mistakes happen and we don't want those mistakes to have a wellbeing impact. But sometimes they do. Particularly kind of with the noise and sometimes with other things going on in people's lives. Sometimes a mistake that happens can then uncover other things, but the first thing is done, led by a coach and probably 9 times out of 10. It's talked about, it's reflected on. It's dealt with, but there's always then further support offered if needed. Hopefully the safe, this space is safe to be able to discuss the mistake, discuss some learning points, discuss anything that can be, be done from a team point of view to support them from it happening again, and getting some constructive feedback from both ways. But that deeper feedback might not happen straight away. It's often important to just give some time and space for self-reflection. Ideally, don't leave it too long, because it can then ruminate a little bit. But I know a lot of our small teams themselves will have some feedback immediately in the changing rooms, not necessarily with the coach, but that support of other people who've been through the same situation and were out there at the same time is really needed. So, it's about overcoming disappointment. It's about normalising those mistakes and then looking at some strategies around that and you know, bringing in gratitude and the things that have gone well. A football game is 90 minutes. We usually spend 90% of our time talking about the potential 30 seconds where there's a mistake. So, it's trying to draw out some of the positives from that other 89 1/2 minutes of a game that have probably gone really well is really important. Sometimes this is self-talk and sometimes this is taking self-talk into the next game or again journaling of actually writing. Why? Why are you there? Why are you good at that role? What went well last time? What are your strengths? Just to go out with that positive, positive outlook. And trying to stay in the moment.

Brooke Kneebush [00:13:37] And I can see lots of the suggestions that you're making. There are really self driven and not just about a, you know, a coach or an official person with a wellbeing title which is really important because a lot of our officials in in other sports may not have an officials coach and that the sport itself might not have quite as many resources but, as you said, talking to someone who may have experienced similar can be really useful. What are some other ways that you can seek out those opportunities yourself? Not necessarily through formal channels?

Kay Robinson [00:14:13] Absolutely. I think you know, I understand at community level you might be alone officiating. If you know you're going to be by yourself. Is it that you can have, even if it's somebody not connected with football or somebody there? So, you know, you've got some support. Can you talk through how you're feeling before with somebody in a similar situation or has been in a similar situation? This could be a mentor, I think. Reach out, ask people for support. People don't necessarily offer, but from my experience people are always willing to help and have a chat and that doesn't have to be a weekly formal catch up. It could be an as and when or a quarterly or whatever you decide amongst yourselves. But having someone to talk to and it doesn't just have to be ideally, someone who's going to be your cheerleader, it's probably somebody that can give you some, some constructive criticism, some learnings, but also you know that they've got your back.

Brooke Kneebush [00:15:07] Yeah, great. And getting back to self-reflection, you were talking about not only exploring the areas where you need improvement, but really digging into those areas where you're doing well. Can you talk a bit more about that?

Kay Robinson [00:15:21] Absolutely. And. And we know that positive emotion has greater links with wellbeing as well. So, if you're, if you're feeling positive, you're feeling good, it's likely to have a positive impact. And, and we talked about the we tend to focus on those negatives. And I think historically coaches have as well ultimately and that's where the modern approach is more, let's look at the great things we've done and draw away from everything's technical. So absolutely talk about the positive technical side - really important. There's so many other areas and that can lead back to some of our process goals. Just to widen that view a little bit, can come from positives in communication, like how crucial is communication in refereeing? Whether that's with the players, with the coaches, with your team, with stakeholders, and it probably needs to change, the way you do that for each person you're speaking to, so actually taking learnings from that. Understanding what went well around how you communicated, how you might have diffused a situation, how you spoke. Looking at preparation, you know is your, is your warmup the best it can be you, know are you just how does your day look and I think that, that's an important one to touch on, because it's important to have a routine, but be flexible in that routine as well, so it might be a case of, well, I tried to think slightly different, but that still works, so that's great. So now I know I can. If that creeps into my day, that's fine. So, it might have been seen as a negative that your car broke down that morning for example, but what a positive, that you still got there, you still performed. Everything went smoothly. You're adaptable, you're flexible. So, I think trying to turn all the, as many of the negatives into that. OK, but what, what were the positives I got out of it?

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:10] I imagine it could also help if you were in a mentor relationship with a less experienced official, someone who was aspiring to achieve what you've achieved, those learnings that you've had, it would be great to be able to share how you've overcome the challenges and and how that's impacted your resilience.

Kay Robinson [00:15:29] Absolutely.

Brooke Kneebush [00:17:30] So, you touched on physical health and exercise.

a little bit there. How can they contribute to mental wellbeing? And not all officials actually have physical roles like football officials. For instance, a criteria-based judge is sitting for long, long periods of time. Have you got any tips and tricks for those types of officials as well?

Kay Robinson [00:17:52] Yeah, for sure. So, I think the foundations are good, wellbeing are exercise, sleep and eating well. And we can try and bring all these extra things in. And I know, kind of it's a bit of a buzzword and there's all sorts applying, but so crucial to get those things and I think you know our our football referees are lucky because exercise is a component that they kind of have to do to to be at that level of refereeing. And so that even at community, you know if you're not, you're not doing at least a little bit of training, you're probably going to be struggling on game day. So that I think that kind of helps it ticks off, however, that training is probably not always important for health, mental health and headspace, and it's been it's important to recognise that and sometimes it's a swim or walk by the beach or something that you really value, that might have a better impact on that. But it is hard if you're a referee that or an official or a judge that, you're spending a whole day inside a building and you don't have the opportunity to exercise, and that's not part of your role. That's another thing that you have to add in to your probably job and family and social connections and travel and all the other things. So, it's trying to make it a habit and a routine.as whether it be every day that's often unfeasible, and people set that every day mark and go can't do it too hard, so it's it's starting small. It's going once a week. I'm going to set my alarm 45 minutes earlier to get up and do this. Routine is really important. Routines really hard when you're travelling, so I'd say start small and if you can start something but tick some other boxes. Whether it's being outside, if you're stuck inside all day or you know something that involves a little bit of breath work, so swimming's great for that. I think from your point of judging, it's really hard to sit still for a long time and maintain focus. And I think you know, we're seeing that a little bit more with with VAR. These people that are doing VAR are usually very active on the pitch moving all the time and now have a role that involves sitting down. Trying to have little movement breaks, and that doesn't need to be stand up and go for a run. Its, stand up and sit down and stand up three times, even if you've only got 15 seconds or stand up, see if you can get outside, take a few breaths. So, when you are sat in that chair or sat on a pool deck, which can be really hot, you know, all those environments aren't great for our cognition Usually, we're really focused and astute. It's absolutely not easy.

Brooke Kneebush [00:20:28] Great. Thank you. Let’s take a a bit of a different tack now. So, we know that officials are sometimes concerned about dealing with difficult stakeholders. It might be unruly spectators, angry coaches, frustrated players and I do want to flag here that this type of behaviour towards officials is, is not OK. Perpetrators of disrespectful treatment toward officials need to be held to account and, and the Australian Sports Commission and national sporting organisations like Football Australia, they are certainly working hard to prevent these behaviours. But what are some tools that you recommend officials equip themselves with to manage challenging situations when they do arise?

Kay Robinson [00:21:06] Absolutely. And a challenging one that I wish I wish we didn't have to discuss, but absolutely we I think we see it across all sports and at all levels and potentially even more impactful at that community level because you don't necessarily have such support structures around you. So, and I think not trying to take that on as something that the individual official should be having to deal with. A lot of people have come up to me since I've been in the role and said “What are you gonna do about match official abuse?” And I'm like, “well, what's society gonna do and what's the football ecosystem?” One person, I'm I can support the referees, but it it's a much bigger picture and I think it's important for officials to understand that, that it's almost not their job to change people's behaviours. Like there, there are things that they can do, and I think bottom line at whatever level you are, it's understanding the things that you can do. So, what’s in your power to control this and I know in some areas we've got a few new things coming in and there's the sin bins coming in in areas of football and things. So, it's actually having a clear understanding of what you can do and trying to do that at the right time. Just trying to, I guess, empower all our officials to use those tools effectively. So it does have an impact, but things like sending off, stopping play. Speaking up, reporting. I think understanding what's there and hopefully as a collective doing as much as we can to minimise that behavior.

Kay Robinson [00:22:37] Having, having a strong support system in place is crucial, and that's inside and outside football at higher up level, you're more likely to have kind of support from a system, but potentially at grassroots it's finding that support from family, friends, mentors, people at the member federation or state system, or community level that you know that they've got your back and hopefully well if you don't feel comfortable to speak up, they might be able to and and then as we've said, unfortunately these things happen. So, it's having strategies in place to try and minimise the effect it has on you. And this might be talking, you know, a lot of people go just want to talk it through, get it off my chest and can move on. It might be drawing on those positives. The things that did go well and not letting get overshadowed one episode overshadow what's been a really good game. And you know, the 90% of people who've been appreciative of your work. And I think generally there are a lot of people who are, but they're not the ones that shout out from the stands. And obviously at the more elite level, you're going to have social media impact and it it's looking at ways to some people go - not gonna have any, any impact with social media. Not gonna read it. Not gonna use it. I think as the younger generation comes through, that's almost not possible for them. So, it's being able to advise how, how they can minimise the impact it has.

Brooke Kneebush [00:24:06] And the great news is that there's actually some new rules and laws around social media coming, not soon enough, but hopefully there's a brighter future there. OK, so officiating can be intense. We've, we've talked about difficult situations, but it might be that there's an important competition you're officiating, like a grand final or a selection event, or there might be prize money involved. And we know, you know, sometimes officials do make mistakes, and then when you add to that, juggling a job family, study it all really adds up. How can officials juggle all these balls in the air at the same time. Well, what are some ways that we can help them to cope and thrive.

Kay Robinson [00:24:49] Wish I had the magic bullet for this one Brooke. But it's absolutely a challenge and everyone's got different, different competing needs and wants and people around them that want different things from them. A way that we often talk about it is it's OK to have different things. I think really, you know, we understand that and hopefully everyone around us does, as well. Ensuring that you do you do with intent, whether that's family time, whether that's work, whether that's officiating and knowing your processes around each of those things is really crucial. So, it's OK if you have family time, you don't need to be thinking about officiating, but when you're on the field, that's when you need to be thinking about officiating. And you know some little, some work around, now, a lot of people I've spoken to have found it quite challenging to go from work straight to training and almost have that real shift in what they should be doing, and I, I heard an interview with a doctor not long ago who was a pediatrician and then would go home to his family and found that transition time really hard. And he always talked about having a cape. So, at work he has his cape and he almost, he started almost physically taking this make-believe cape off to go - OK, now I'm a Dad. And we talk about the same thing. For officials, it's a case of once that uniform’s on, you're an official. So, you've got that real separation. Because it's hard. We all know we come home from work and we're thinking about things we need to be doing. But if you're an official and you're out on a game that night, that's potentially going to impact performance. So, it's trying to find some strategies to have that, that separation and that might even be time that might be a I'm going to sit for 5 minutes. I'm just gonna breathe or listen to some music or do something that is a little bit of a circuit breaker between two things, but it is challenging and sometimes communicating those other things that are going on in your life can be beneficial, whether that's with a coach or mentor or a friend. Anyone really.

Brooke Kneebush [00:27:48] I love the analogy of the, the make-believe cape I, I actually do a similar thing and I'm an actress going on stage and everything else is out of mind while I'm out there doing what I do and then like you said, sometimes the minute you step off the field or or whatever it is, it's right back into it, but that's OK and it's almost like being out there, doing your thing is like taking a break. And sometimes if you if you're able to switch on and off like that, it can be really empowering.

Kay Robinson [00:27:17] Think is a really powerful skill to be able to do that as well, and again it takes practice like the other things and sometimes it won't work, but you build up that practice potentially in different, training for example. So, you have the skills going into a game day to do that.

Brooke Kneebush [00:27:32] Yeah, absolutely. So, we've talked about some challenges with officiating, but actually officiating can be really rewarding as well, and that's why we we do it, isn't it? And it can often actually contribute to positive wellbeing. So, what are some reasons that the referees you work with, enjoy what they do? Why do they keep coming back and how does officiating make their lives better?

Kay Robinson [00:27:56] Ohh so many ways and I think I've been really lucky to get such a great insight into some of these since I've been in my role, and I think there's a lot about giving back to the game and being part of football, which people love and have such a passion for. It can be a way to stay involved in a game as well. It helps develop the game. You know, we don't have referees, we don't, we don't have a game, Ultimately. I think speaking to a lot of our, our female officials, they're such role models for the future generation and support for the future generation and they get so much from that. A huge thing about working alongside peers connections, great friends and those that are on our FIFA panel, it often comes back to again just learning new cultures, connections, understanding people more is such a driver for spending many hours away from family and having unpaid leave from work. But you know that that travel and experiencing in new cultures is is such a huge pull at that level. And I think you know, one of one of the key, key things around wellbeing is that feeling of belonging in connection and how good is sport for that ultimately? Whether that's coaching, refereeing, playing, physioing being involved brings you that sense of belonging connection. So that's, that's huge amongst our referees. And it's a great way to combine physical and mental fitness as well. And you know, keep, keep cognitively ticking as well as the, the physical training component. And you know, I think the skills you develop can can pay you back for so many years to come. I know the, the World Economic Forum just released a, a least of kind of the top skills that they'll be looking for in in 2025. And it aligns so beautifully with referees. So even if it's at a community level and these referees and officials aren't looking to go to the, the highest level, the things that they can develop in leadership and communication are just so crucial for the rest of their life.

Brooke Kneebush [00:30:03] My yeah, for sure. I absolutely agree with you about those skills that particularly young people just getting started in officiating, the way that they can develop as people for whatever it is they go on to do for the rest of their life. It's, it's actually so exciting, but we need to get away now, Kay. But before we sign off, we did just want to offer some aftercare messages. Kay, we've spoken a lot about wellbeing today. What final suggestion do you have for officials to look after themselves?

Kay Robinson [00:30:35] I think ultimately, it's OK to say you're not OK and trying to find someone that's trusted that you can within your sport or outside your sport that then you can reach out to. And I think sport has, has that responsibility to provide that person and that space. I think there's people out there willing to support, and there's always, there's always strategies. There's always things that can be done. It's not so black and white that you must do this, this and this. But communication is key and sometimes potentially missing a training or missing a game is gonna be much more beneficial than forcing you out there. So it's fine to, we all have bad days and good days and, and try and communicate that as much as possible.

Brooke Kneebush [00:31:21] Thank you and remember help is available. It's important to seek support early if you find stress or anxiety starting to impact your daily life. Consult a GP, mental health professional or a mental health organisation such as Beyond Blue. If you require urgent support, call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Or if someone’s safety is in danger, call 000.

Thank you for sharing your time with us, Kay, and for your insights into the theme of How you improve for officials with a modern approach.

Kay Robinson [00:31:52] Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

Brooke Kneebush [00:31:54] And thanks to our audience for listening. To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission’s Community Officiating web page.

I'm Brooke Kneebush and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:32:08] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Brooke Kneebush [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Brook Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with a special guest each episode, I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics. The theme for today's podcast is Who you officiate. This includes understanding modern participants, their varied motivations and needs, the flexibility required, and role of officials in these being fulfilled. Today I'm joined by Jacqui Jashari, who is an international and all Australian netball umpire and is currently on the Asian International Testing Panel for World Netball. Her day job has a rather long title, being Director, Sport Development and Engagement, Sport and Recreation with the Western Australian Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries. She also has many other strings to her bow, which we’ll no doubt hear about in today's podcast. So Jacqui, thank you for joining us.

Jacqui Jashari [00:01:08] Thank you very much for having me, Brooke. I'm here, in Boorloo, which is Perth in Western Australia, on the banks of the Derbarl Yerrigan. And I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land, the Whadjuk people of the Noongar, and pay my respect to Elders past, present and emerging.

Brooke Kneebush [00:01:25] Thanks very much, Jacqui. So, can you start by telling us about your journey in sport, how you came to be a netball umpire and your involvement from community right through to international?

Jacqui Jashari [00:01:37] Like everybody else, I started playing sport very young. I wanted to play lots of sports, so I was very fortunate. My dad was very sporty, and so he encouraged me to just play any sport that I wanted to. So, the list of sports I played was lacrosse. I did calisthenics, I did tap dancing, I did netball, I did basketball, I played a little bit of hockey, which I was not too good at. And then I decided, well, you know, I can try all those sports, but what was I most interested in? And what were the ones that I thought I could be fairly good at? So, I honed my skills into basketball and netball, becoming, state league basketball player, would you believe, and not so good at netball. But I ended up playing netball and coaching netball and ultimately umpiring netball. So, I started my journey down at Fremantle Netball Association. Then once I got a little bit older and I had children, I decided I'd do a bit of coaching. So, I dabbled in that for a bit. And then I was actually, you know, told, well, you got to go out there. It's part of your duties, as we all know, as a volunteer. So, I did go out and umpire and I was identified, as having a little bit of talent. And therein kind of started my journey in umpiring. So, and since then it's led me through to an international career, which has been fantastic. It's been, not not a long, long journey, but I think I say ten years of deliberate practice to get, you know, from community up to, you know, perhaps the elite level. So, you know, I was really fortunate when I was at Fremantle, I had some, you know, great role models down there, some beautiful mentors, and I and I loved it. You know, I just really enjoyed the social aspect.

And then I was kind of fast tracked into our WA Netball league. So, I went through my badge levels and I think the first season of WA Netball League, I got one game and I was over the moon. So, it was about a ten week season and I managed to knock one game in and wasn't invited back again. So, I think that just made me more determined. So went back to my association and you know, really, really worked hard there and then went through, got my all-Australian badge and then determined again, took me 6 years to get my international badge. So, you know, bunkered down and very determined to get that badge. So, I did. And since then, you know, I've been fortunate. It's. Taking me around the world, I've umpired at World Championships and Commonwealth Games. And met some wonderful people. And then it was a natural thing for me when I came off the court was to contribute, you know, back. So, I went back and started coaching umpires both at Community level, you know, WA Netball league and then national and international level. So, you know, it was just a natural experience. For me to do that and to go back and and give back, I guess.

Brooke Kneebush [00:04:26] Thanks for that. And I really liked hearing about the determination. And it actually seems like quite a common theme with some, some other officials who have eventually made it to a really high level but have had to face challenges along the way. And you talked a little bit about back in the day, I think that you and I, it was quite similar ages. Now, the world's changed a lot since, since you and I first became involved in sport as children and even sport itself has changed. And and that's really why the, the Sports Commission is leading this modern approach to transform the sporting experience and encourage more people to participate, officiate, coach and physically enjoy sport. What are some of the most significant changes that you've noticed in your role as netball umpire, and also in all the other work that you do?

Jacqui Jashari [00:05:13] Yeah, we see, you know, there's lots of trends that we see broadly across, you know, Western Australia. And I think the and in netball too, I think you know people are very time you know, very time poor. And so, the the way people want to consume, you know, sport and recreation and how they want to get involved in it is very different. You know, from when I was involved very at a very young age, it was a Saturday afternoon thing. And that's when you did it. And you're trying once a week and away you went. Whereas, you know, now I think, you know, everybody wants to consume it differently. So, you know, I love the way the modern, officiating and coaching approach, you know, talks about experience and environment, because it really resonates with me. And I think you stay involved because of that experience, and you stay involved because the right environment is created for you. Which I think is getting back to the challenge piece that you mentioned before. You know, it's not going to be smooth sailing. And you're going to get challenges, but I think people have different motivations, you know, to stay involved. They want to stay active. They don't want, you know, organised sport all the time. So, you know, there's a cost of sport as well. I think, you know, that's change for people too. So that's that's a bit of a challenge, you know, across many sports as well. And so, and the demand and commitments to sport is really critical.

Brooke Kneebush [00:06:30] Yeah. Great. And now you talked a little bit about your time in sport. Oh I wasn't that good. You actually sound a little bit like me I, I had the same sort of passion you had, but it was for gymnastics and I although I didn't make state level or anything like that, I absolutely loved it. I just couldn't get enough of it. And I actually went on to become a, you know, an official and a coach and was able to maintain that passion, just like you have. But I think often we, we assume people are in it to win. And it just is not always the case. Yes, some people are. And yes, winning is nice sometimes. But, what are some of the motivations for people you officiate for playing sport and, whether that be at the community level or even at the international level, what are some of those motivations?

Jacqui Jashari [00:07:24] I think, you know, being fit, you know, fitness is is a big motivation for people, you know, and then if they enjoy the game, they're playing the sport they're playing, they're going to to want to stay involved. And I think motivations are around, you know, people some people want to get to the top. So, they want to, you know, you know, participate in sport at an Olympics or a Commonwealth Games or World Championships, you know. And so, I think their motivation is when I look across my kind of spectrum of coming from kind of community right through that, you know, everyone has a different motivation. It's fun, it's enjoyment. It's, no pressure, you know, and being able to manage and cope with the pressure. I think coaches play a big part in that. So, whether they be umpire coaches or coaches of athletes, I think, you know, they're motivators, you know, for people to stay involved. So, I think, having good coaches, not just as technical coaches, but, you know, motivate, motivators and understanding the needs of the players and the umpires. You know, I try, from my experience, I try and get to know the umpires and understand, you know, their individuality, I guess, because they all have different motivations, different needs, different reasons why they’re involved, different reasons why they can't come week in, week out.

Brooke Kneebush [00:08:39] And then. So, we've got the motivations on the one hand. And then people might have different needs. So, they might be young, you know, they might just be learning the rules or they might be coming back from injury or illness. What what are some of the different participant needs that you've come across as an official?

Jacqui Jashari [00:08:57] Probably the best thing, and I teach this to this day, is that umpires, it doesn't matter what level you are at, you should go and experience different, you know, different levels of umpiring, different people with different needs, you know, umpiring, men's netball, you know, perhaps going down. You know, we have the, the disability team here too as well. So go down and do that, go to as many different carnivals as you can, can multicultural things, all those types of things. So, I think, you know, it's it's about adapting as an umpire. So, you know, umpires that are just, you know, you have those umpires that are very technical, and they could read the rulebook inside out, but it's about how they bring, their personality, and their approach to be able to adapt to the needs of the players and the coaches. And so how you approach that is really important. I think if you can't adapt, then you're going to get some challenges and issues across that. So, I think it's being aware of that. You know, we, you know, with females now, it's great females can play, you know, when they're pregnant. So, I think that's really important, you know, and building, building that understanding rapport, that relationship, both with, you know, again, players and coaches and umpires.

Brooke Kneebush [00:10:04] You're from Western Australia and I've spent quite a bit of time in far north Western Australia myself, and I know that sport goes on in some pretty remote places in such a big state. Are there some unique motivations for people across your state or remote Australia. And what about unique solutions to officiating challenges?

Jacqui Jashari [00:10:25] I think, you know, sport brings communities together. So, they're that thread that brings the community in every, probably country town in WA you can drive in and you see a bowling club, you know, you might see a multi-use recreation centre and you’ll see a swimming pool. So, it is often the place where people go to socialise, they meet all their friends, all those types of things. So, but with that they bring unique challenges. So, we have the far north, you know, the Kimberley, the Pilbara. And it's about facilities too. So, what's available in the facility. And I think the heat is a is a factor. And so generally they'll play at night, or they'll play in an indoor centre because of the heat. So, and I've lived in Kalgoorlie. So, I lived in the Eastern Goldfields for five years. So I played netball, played all sports up there and the facilities. Can remember the potholes in the netball court, you know, those types of things. So, but we played, and so it was just about adapting. It's really about knowing when people want to play sport, how they play it, where they play it. And it's very unique across Western Australia. So, but, but you know, there's opportunities for everyone to be involved. And umpiring is the same. We have regional academies for umpires and umpires coming through pathways and development pathways, which is critical.

Brooke Kneebush [00:11:39] Yeah. And it is a great way for communities to come together, people to come from outside of those towns and come centrally together and connect as, as you you've talked about there.

Jacqui Jashari [00:11:49] Yeah. And I think Brooke too to add to that is, you know, most, most states will have their state championships or their country regional championships. So everybody from the region, you know, will come into Perth. And they do it in Victoria and other places. And I can remember playing in Kalgoorlie and it was a big, you know, big event on the calendar to come to Perth on the bus and play all the other, you know, regional towns etc. And it was a big thing. So those opportunities are great and they're things you don't ever forget.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:17] And they’re where friendships are made for life aren’t they you, keep those friends going on and on.

Jacqui Jashari [00:12:23] Yeah, 100%.

Brooke Kneebush [00:12:24] So with all your years of experience officiating. How do you go about trying to get to know the participants and try to understand these different motivations and needs? What sort of opportunities do you have to interact and engage?

Jacqui Jashari [00:12:44] Yeah, it's really important. Again, from my experience, I again teach the same thing to the umpires I work with. It's about taking the opportunities. You go to training sessions so you might stand around at a training session, but you're there listening to the coach, listening to the instructions that are given to the players. You get an opportunity maybe now and then to blow whistle or to, you know, call out stepping all those types of things. But you get to interact, you know, with the players without a pressure situation. So that's how you build that rapport and build those relationships. You know, in the first instance I think it's being approachable as well. So, you know, during a game or if they'd like to come up and talk to you at quarter time, half time or after a game, it's about how you approach that scenario. I always again had another saying is that, you know, I needed to earn the respect of the players. It was really important that I did that. It was important to me. But also, they needed to earn my respect. And so it was a two way kind of situation. So, working hard at that is really important. I think, you know, talking to coaches as much as you can, and understanding what they're trying to do with their players, but also calling out, when you need to, you know, behaviours and things like that with the players and having a, you know, a good conversation. I would always have a ten second rule. So, if I was approached, I would listen. Listening is really important as we know. So, I would always listen to, you know, what the what the I guess the question was or what they wanted to get across and then try and think, you know, calmly about my response, which is really good. So, I guess it's about, you know, building that rapport doesn't matter, whether it's on a Saturday afternoon or it's in an international level or where it is, having a rapport with coaches is really critical, you know, at all levels. I think that's the case sometimes because they feel comfortable to talk to you and ask you for clarification on things. So, it's not easy.

Brooke Kneebush [00:14:34] And no doubt making those good relationships with the coaches would rub off on their players because the the players would see, oh well the coach is respecting this official and and you know, the coach obviously thinks that they're being, you know, reasonable. So therefore, perhaps I can.

Jacqui Jashari [00:14:50] Yeah. And I think too with that the players didn't feel comfortable, and they might be a little bit cross or a little bit, upset by your decision or whatever, but they'll come up and they'll ask it in a nice way usually, and you can have a decent conversation around it. You can agree to disagree, and that's okay. But it's it's about how you how you do that and, how you create that relationship. And so, they feel comfortable doing it. But I think too, with umpiring, you know, umpires need to be humble. And sometimes, you don't see that, because, you know, they, they, don't want to recognise that they've made a mistake or, and I've done that. I've got a great example of where that happened to me when I was umpiring, you know, the National League and, I made a mistake and, of course, it was in the paper for three days. I think about this critical mistake that I made, but I, I thought, no, I've got to go stay here, and I've got to go to the training session with the coach, and the players and and talk through it. And so, I gave the opportunity at the end for them all to talk to me about that. And they talked about that. And I just admitted that, yes, you were right. I made a mistake, and I was in this is why I made the mistake. I was in the wrong place, wrong time, looking at the wrong thing. And I went. Oh. Okay. So, examples of that are really, really important in umpires. You know, being able to do that and to be able to, you know, say that they've made a mistake or whatever is really important.

Brooke Kneebush [00:16:16] And interesting that you made one mistake and appeared in the paper for three days. And yet, sport has officials because players make mistakes all the time.

Jacqui Jashari [00:16:26] Yes, yes, yes. Well very true. You know, you see it with all sports don't you. You know, and it's just and so why is that one decision that is, you know, I think I don't know what the stats are think in a netball game. I think there might be something like 15,000 decisions or something like that, you know, and they're not whistle decisions. They're what you process in your head. And is that a contact, or isn't it? And is that this and that? So, you know, all in a matter of three seconds while the players got the ball. So, yeah, it's there's quite a few decisions to make.

Brooke Kneebush [00:16:54] So now can you think of some sort of practical ways that you can make sure that participant motivations and needs are met? Are there some sort of practical things that you can do?

Jacqui Jashari [00:17:05] Well, I think, you know, number one, you know, we all have responsibilities to make sure it's enjoyable. So, I think that's just number one. And that's in about the way you talk and what you say is really important. So, changing your tone. So, if you need to get something across, your tone might change. Or if you, you can have a giggle and a laugh in a game and that's okay. And often, you know, placed on here, you can call them by their names. I think being inclusive. Is really important. So, make everybody feel comfortable. That's true. And, you know, go to a game. Say hello. Be friendly. Make everyone feel comfortable. And then that kind of breaks the ice a little bit. So, they're kind of easy wins, I think. And again, it's just that positive environment. So, I can't kind of reiterate that enough. I think that's really important and making people feel relaxed. So, when we have young umpires, and we assume. They come out to our National League, you know, WA, netball league and we assume they're confident. And it might be their first game and they're so scared. But you know, we're not tuned into that. And so, we just assume that they are comfortable. So, it's those little things I think that to say how are you feeling. You know what's going through your mind. You know all those types of things I think safety is important too. So, ensuring that, you know, protection of players, you know, protection of umpires, I think is really important all round. And so, there are obviously some general trends that, you know, across concussion and the like. And so, I think it's important that, we understand around that. Also, you know, integrity, sport integrity is really important as well. So that's you know, key and people being aware of that and what that means. Making the playing environment fair and equitable, I think is also, you know, paramount. And we can influence that, as well. You know, I think looking at learners and, you know, older adults and their needs are different. And how do we, you know, support them in what they're trying to do as well?

Brooke Kneebush [00:18:57] Great. And can you actually adapt the way that you officiate to make people feel included and respected and, and accepted? Are there ways that you can do it when you're on the court with the whistle?

Jacqui Jashari [00:19:09] Yeah, absolutely. I think you can. I think, it is, you know, we often talk in Netball. There's a quiet word. So, everyone talks, you know talks about it being something different. It's just a verbal kind of chat with a player to say, oh, you need to probably stop doing that, or don't go offside so much or, and giving them that encouragement to say, you know, don't keep doing that. Let's let's adjust. Let's adapt so that we're not penalising you all the time. So in in netball umpiring, there's those types of things. Just you hear it in football a bit too, when the umpire will say move, move back off the mark or do this or do that. And I think there's ways we can do that. I think coming down to a community level to, you know, I umpired a little, junior game once because they had no one to umpire it. And so, I thought, oh, you know, piece of cake, I'll get out there and do that. And it was, for me, probably one of the hardest games I've ever umpired with. You know, the kids were all running at the ball and then that'd all run away. And then they wouldn't listen to me. And, and so it was just really getting, you know, stopping the game and getting down to their level and to say, right, kids, you know, you were coaching and umpiring. So, it's like you run off over there and you run off over there. And so, it was just about really adapting the way you talk, what you do, how you interact and what you're able to do at the different levels.

Brooke Kneebush [00:20:20] Yeah. And you talked about, umpiring the little ones. I always think as a gymnastics judge, we put the the learner judges on the learner gymnasts who make all sorts of mistakes, and you see things and you can barely recognise it as a skill, and then you have to figure out what the rules are around that. Whereas it would be easier if we started off officiating, the more experienced participants first and then worked our way down to those beginners.

Jacqui Jashari [00:20:48] Yeah. And it's probably, you know, part of our development here with our kind of state league umpires is we will often move from between levels of games, because they are challenged. And then they'll come off and go gosh, you know, that that level game was so hard. And I said, yeah, it's a lot harder because your skills and techniques, they don't change, but it's how you apply them that changes. And so, it really makes a really rounded umpire. And actually, they they might go back a little bit to go forward, which is a really good way to develop.

Brooke Kneebush [00:21:13] And then also get that experience of officiating alongside other officials of, of different levels as well.

Jacqui Jashari [00:21:20] Yeah. We often will put a very inexperienced umpire with a more experienced umpire. It's no different from what they do with their players on the court. So, you know, and we get that buy in from them. So, it's good. And I think also with coaches. So, I've really, you know, tried to build relationships so that I can be impactful to help them help their team in terms of, you know, understanding the rules. So, Stacey Marinkovich, the coach of the Diamonds, Stacey was based here with Fever for a while and we, you know, we we got to know each other really well. And I'd often get a phone call to say, Jacqui, can you just have a look at this video? Like, I need you to explain this to me, you know, and so we would had that kind of relationship, which helped her bring a better experience for her players. And I was impactful in terms of supporting that. So always be open, you know, to have those conversations and to go into trainings and be, you know, help players directly. So often I would go in and just talk to the players about certain things they were doing. I think Courtney Bruce, being here at The Fever for so long. So, we, you know, we built a good relationship and were able to talk about a lot of things and talk about ways that, you know, look at videos and talk about ways that, you know, she could reduce penalties, for instance, or do do different things technically better so that, you know, umpires would understand what she was trying to do. And they were some great experiences. I had some, you know, not all good experiences, but I think, you know, I think always managed to work through, you know, any challenges with players and, you know, build that relationship often just having a laugh in the hallway or, you know, behind and, you know, having a general chat about stuff other than netball, you know, and so I think, you know, I had some you know, it's probably been a great journey in terms of those friends, both players and coaches. So, yeah, some some really good experiences, I think. And hopefully I had I had had an impact, and hopefully, you know, they've respected probably what I hopefully brought to the game and brought to umpiring as well.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:13] Fantastic. Oh, wow. That's just wonderful. Jacqui, thank you so much for sharing. And and thank you for joining us today and sharing your insights into the theme of Who you officiate, understanding the modern participant. Thank you also to our audience for listening.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29]To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission's officiating web page. I'm Brooke Kneebush, and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Clare Ferguson

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Carrie Graf

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I am the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's Coaching and Officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today, it's brilliant to have Carrie Graf join us in the studio, Carrie has coached teams in the WNBL, WNBA and the Australian national team. At the 2015 Australia Day honours, Carrie was appointed a member of the Order of Australia for her significant service to Basketball as a coach, mentor and athlete, as well as to the community. Carrie is going to offer some perspective on things from the athletes point of view and what the athletes are looking for. Thanks very much for joining us.

Carrie Graf [00:01:00] My pleasure.

Cam Tradell [00:01:01] Carrie. Over time, things have definitely changed and definitely moved in sport. But sometimes I feel that some of the areas of sport doesn't move as quickly as others. From an athlete perspective, how do you think things have moved and how do we service that?

Carrie Graf [00:01:17] Well, I mean, I think it's how coaching has moved to service the new, the you know, the current generation of athlete, whether it be community sport and athletes involved at that level or high performance athletes. And I think, you know, certainly in my time or even over the last 20 years, you know, coaching hasn't changed, or the way we coach hasn't changed a whole lot. But I think the young people that we engage with, as coaches, have changed a lot in how they think and how they consume information, in how they they expect to be delivered information. And I think that's a critical part of coaching, is to be, have a currency in the modern way of communicating in an autocrat, not a less autocratic style of delivering information to people, whether that's young people or, you know, 20, 30 year old high performance athletes. I think that's a big part of leading people in in modern times.

Cam Tradell [00:02:16] Yeah, it's interesting because to intrinsically motivate them to turn up next week and whether you're talking about someone at the grassroots or community level, club level or a high performance player who wants to get better and wants to know how to get better, I'm guessing that the way that that's communicated in a meaningful way becomes important. Have you got any tools in the in the kit bag that you use with regard to how you communicate differently. Have you got different ways or how do you test the waters there?

Carrie Graf [00:02:45] I mean, I think certainly for me and I, I lived through this experience as a coach is that as technology became a part of how we all communicate that athletes more and more wanted to communicate in a new way rather than old way, they didn't want to sit and have a face to face conversation with me. They'd rather do it over text, even if you're on the same bus together. So you can either stick to your guns and do it your way, or you can say, hmm, they like it this way. How do we find a mix? So I think that and I think just the use of technology in how we communicate is how our young people are growing up. And I don't think that has to be a dirty word. I think we can embrace technology in our learning spaces. And and even, you know, I started doing things with just using your iPad to video athletes at practise and show them immediately. You don't need high tech stuff. You just pull out the iPad and they can see themselves. And video doesn't lie either. So, you know, for a long time in terms of, you know, high performance level, there's, you know, video analysis and you do a whole session on video. But even at the community level, you can take your own iPad. And while they're doing a shooting drill, pick it up straight away and say, you know how I was telling you that shoot a bit high here. Have a look at this, you're shooting darts, not a beautifully curved, looping three point shot. So I think and they engage in that because they're on screens a whole lot and they understand information that way. So I think that's certainly a way that at any level of coaching, the immediacy of using technology, handheld technology can be powerful in terms of a learning tool and an engagement tool.

Cam Tradell [00:04:15] With that sort of individualised approach. And I guess it comes with pros and cons, the individualised approach with regards to showing people in real time what's happening, how does that work with the flow on effect with regards to trying to build cohesion in teams and sort of putting together the the individualised coaching areas where, as I say, you're given that real time feedback to then working in a broader group. How do you bring that sort of group structure and communicate on that broader style together?

Carrie Graf [00:04:42] I think first and foremost, it's about understanding your people and whether they're six year olds or 26 year olds, whether they're new the sport or whether they're a veteran Olympic athlete. And I think it's you know, one size doesn't fit all in terms of communication style. Not one person stand at the front berating people or directing them to get in the line or to shut up or whatever it might be. It's, you know, I call it,  kind of coach whispering. It's understanding people. And I can look Cam straight in the eye and I can tell him I need him to do this right now. And he goes, yeah, got your coach done. And I can do that to Paul, and he goes into a shell lost, "I'm never going to turn up here again". So I think understanding different learning styles, different communication styles and how your little people or your big people operate with your style is critical to individualising people's engagement in your work as a coach, to have them interact in an environment where they can thrive, you know, socially, mentally, physically and through their motor skill set in their chosen sport.

Cam Tradell [00:05:47] The different ways that people receive information and how they enact it. When you start to talk about performance people, you start to talk about honing in on skills and you're giving them that feedback and they're still not getting there. What's some of the methods that you can use to really target a skill without becoming over technical. What are some of the ways that you soften that, the conversation with them?

Carrie Graf [00:06:11] Well, I think sometimes it's you know, young people can take feedback in a group and some can't. And so I think that's when there's the the pull side or coach whispering that you can deliver it in a different tone and acquired a thing and not call out a skill. And I think it's having the athletes understand that highlighting to them a skill that they may not be performing well is about the skill. It's not about them as a person, just like the learning they do at school. You know, we're going to try it this way. It doesn't mean you're a bad person or I think you're no good at this. It's this skill. Try it this way. Like you're learning to draw. You do a five backwards. How can we try that another way? So I think it's using the language about can we try that a different way, use an analogy rather than a direct approach. What is it that's going to engage and I think you just have to keep trying until you can work out what your little people can grasp. Four of them might learn it. Well, let's have a look at this, everybody, and we'll give an example of how to do it for four people are wandered off with the Pixies and looking at something else. Let's get in line and I'm going to show you exactly how to demonstrate this to other people. Get it. The other five like this is boring. So I think you have to try different methods to get there's not you can't do it. You can't run a training session or a fun environment just one way. I think there has to be experiential learning. It's through trial and error. Here's a couple of rules. Let's go play. Let's keep it open. The creative people love that. The structured people like, "Can you tell us when we start? When do we finish? What's the score? When do we go? Can I use my left foot, my right foot." They're lost in a creative environment, but the creatives need it. So I think throughout a training session or a sports session, their needs to be all of those catered to. Here's some structure and here are the rules and the guidelines. Here's some free play. We want to be creative. Off you go. There's two rules. Let's play. Here's a physical part. We're all following the rules. We're going to run ten lines, we are going to touch the ball this way. So I think there needs to be all of those elements to try and cater to the group. You're not going to catch twenty, thirty little people, by one way. And I think that's the you know, that's the art of coaching and teaching.

Cam Tradell [00:08:16] It's a great way of putting it, the art of coaching and teaching. And I think that when you're looking at the different layers, I'm guessing that it can become quite confronting for some new coaches coming in that are thinking, I just want to come and teach the sport. And now I've got all these other layers of complexity with regards to how I service. What sort of support do you think? And what are the ways that people could navigate their way around if they do have a problem in front of them. What have you done in the past when you sort of had that little bit of a gap?

Carrie Graf [00:08:49] I mean, I think for me, my journey into coaching was in some ways blessed. You know, I grew up with two school teacher parents, so and I have a degree in sports science education. So I was sort of equipped, you know, and I played at the elite level as a young person and was coached by a whole lot of different coaching styles, mostly men. But I was equipped and I'd seen teaching in action throughout my family life. And if you were a kid that was sick in our family, you didn't not get to go to school. You went to your parents school and you actually saw them in action. So I guess I, I came from a place of understanding how to engage groups of people. And the position I played was a leading position, point guard. So it was a directive role and I wasn't a fast athlete, so I had to strategize. So I was sort of equipped, I think, through my sporting career in my family life and upbringing, education about some of those things that I later realised, wow they're actual coaching skills that I'd sort of learnt by osmosis. But I think you can seek those out through coaching courses, modern coaching courses. And a lot of it now is about people engagement. And I think, you know, often our coaches at the community level, we have the sport, knowledge and expertise. We know the technicalities of how to kick the ball or strike the ball or shoot the ball. But what we might not have through our professional life is are those you know, I won't call them soft skills because it implies that they're less important. But those people skills that are so critical to helping people extract performance from themself or enjoy their performance. So I think that that would be where I'd I'd go is that if I can manage and lead people, I can coach because I've got the technical part about the game. I know that part. I'm an expert in that. But what I don't know is how to control these 30 kids. Oh, my God, what do I do? And I think not to have the fear around it often if we're not comfortable, we go to so much structure. It's not funny. And that's probably the worst thing we can do, because that's not fun for many people and for little people that they're like, really, we've got to stand in another line and we don't get a turn for ten minutes. I wouldn't turn up to that either. I've seen coaches. I'm like, let them all have a touch. Give them all the ball. Yes, it's chaotic, but guess what? That's fun. Chaos is fun. And through chaos, we learn. So and let's be honest, you know, team sport environment. So the high performance level are organised chaos. It's the chaos. It's the learnings we have through playing in chaos that allow us in a pressure situation to make practise decisions in chaotic circumstance. And I think that defines greatness in team sports that can in chaotic situations, we can structure as much as we like. But guess what? Team sports, it isn't structured. You've got to be able to make it up right on the spot under pressure in a big game with one second to go. We can't practise exactly that, but we can create a chaotic environment that allows you to navigate through that with all that duress on you. And I think you can do that. And that's where that chaotic trial and error learning for young kids in developing sport skills is so critical. And it's the coach's role to undo that control bit that we all feel. If I can keep him organised in control, I'm okay. But we have to be open in that space to let it be chaotic. It's okay.

Cam Tradell [00:12:19] It's amazing insight.  Off the back of that, just changing tact a little bit. How important do you see the role of the official with regards to how they create, communicate and how they can set the tone for what sport looks like at all levels?

Carrie Graf [00:12:34] Without officials? There is no sport. And I think certainly first and foremost, it's a huge role of the coach to set an example about how the culture around refereeing and what's okay. It's not okay to abuse a referee. It's not okay to not treat them with respect, as you would a coaching colleague, a parent or one of the athletes that you coaching. And I think the change has to come from the coaching fraternity in terms of the culture of what's how we treat refereeing. And I think it's you know, it's part of the building culture of all sports that, you know, wraping this culture and officiating that says it's not okay to speak to a referee in certain way and that we're we're role modelling to our young people involved in sports that that's okay. Blame somebody. Well, let's start here. Let's check out our own backyard first. So, Coach, what are you focussed on? I'm focussed on creating an environment that my athletes enjoy, have fun in, develop social skills in, learn to win and lose, learn to handle adversity, learn to be persistent. That's my job as a coach, regardless of what the level is. My job is not to say anything to the referee other than great job ref. I might say in my mind, interesting call, but guess what, coach the referees think an interesting call. Why do you call that timeout? You know, we're all a part of this coaching infrastructure and community and it's everyone's responsibility. But I think, you know, officiating is critical to our sports development. And I officiated as a as a young elite player, I wouldn't want to do that today with what happens still at community level sport. Why would I want to do that and get abused by a parent yelling at me when I'm 14? So I think that's a huge part of our community sports that we need to change the culture and the environment around how officials are treated. They are a critical element. And I think the best officials at at all levels of sport are ones just like coaches that have great people skills, that can communicate, that understand the game, understand the pressures. Yes, they understand the technicalities of how to blow whistle and what signals to call and make a decision on a play. But they can communicate with the other stakeholders in that environment. The young people that are playing, you know, as young referees, they should be coaching the athletes, too, is my belief. I used to, I'd coach, referee under tens and coach him at the same time. That was a travel because you did X, Y, Z, he'd have another turn. So I think they're critically important to our whole sport system.

Cam Tradell [00:15:03] It's really interesting because officials don't get called into play until a player in the game makes a mistake and immediately we start to question the call. So the officials scrutinised, but sometimes the players aren't scrutinised at the same level. So it's interesting that the human nature of sport takes over. Carrie, this has been a fantastic session. We really, really appreciate it. There's a lot for people to take away in that around, one, you personal experience, but also in what the future might look like with regards to how we can create these optimal learning environments. Thanks very much for joining us.

Carrie Graf [00:15:34] My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:15:39] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gove.au  My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Amy Perrett

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and l am the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. In this episode, we dive into the world of officiating with Rugby Union referee Amy Perrett, Amy has officiated at the Women's World Sevens Series, the 2016 Rio Olympic Games, the Women's World Cup Rugby final in 2014 and will officiate at the upcoming Tokyo Olympic Games. In 2020, Amy became the first female to take charge with the whistle in a Super Rugby match. Welcome, Amy. How are you?

Amy Perrett [00:00:57] I'm really good. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Cam Tradell [00:00:59] Fantastic. Thank you. Amy, I'll be really interested to understand, knowing that you have refereed at all levels and seeing you at the Super Rugby level. Do you have a process or what are your processes with regards to making decisions and basing them on what you see and how do you navigate through decision making.

Amy Perrett [00:01:19] Decision making now that I've been refereeing now for 18, 19 years or so. At the moment now it's all based on gut instinct, but to kind of get to that stage, you go through a lot of different things from where you start to when you get to elite. In Rugby, we have checklists for everything because, you know, so much is going on in the tackle or ruck. An average family who doesn't know rugby will probably think what is happening there. But, so we formulate these kind of checklists and they give us a process of what we need to look at each stage of a tackle, of a ruck, of the maul, or the lineout, all the different aspects of the game and as you are learning and developing those kind of decision making skills. They're the things that you going over at each phase. And the more experience you get, the better you get at it. What starts to become that gut feel, that potential kind of decision making mode. Once you figure all that out, it's funny because you start seeing refs then show that they know everything and probably over penalising and become way too technical. So once you realise you come to that stage and you blow 40 penalties in a game, most of the crowd kind of let you know that that's not what they want. We go through it like another stage and talk about making relevant decision. So, again, we can be very technical. I'm sure in any breakdown you could find a penalty that you want, but then we start talking about making a relevant decision. So is that a fair contest then? An even fair contest? That's good. Then we can kind of we can play away from that minor infringement. Is the ball quick? Is the team in attack able to get the ball as quick as they can if they can. And we say, OK, we can play away from that infringement. They are, I guess the two key things that we kind of, talk about, whether it is a fair contest, whether the speed of the ball's been affected and they now come into play around a relevant decision making. And I said the longer you kind of do it, it starts to become more of a gut instinct. And I don't know how many times I've overthought a decision and didn't trust my gut and I ended up being wrong. So that's kind of now what I kind of fall back on. You've always just kind of got the experience of all different styles and types of games to kind of get me that experience to just kind of trust those gut instincts. And there'll be times that I'm wrong. And that's OK, because that's another big part of our decision making process, and the journey to get to where you need to be because you learn from those mistakes and in Rugby,  some really weird stuff happens. And it might only happen once in your whole career, but you learn from it and you move on and figure out a different way so that you prepare for it again or it actually doesn't happen again, or you can pass it on to someone else so it doesn't happen to them or they are well prepared for it as well. And then when you get to the Super Rugby level, you just kind of have to be really confident. As you said, there's a lot of pressure coming at you from the crowd because they can watch a big screen, there is commentators and don't necessarily agree with your decision. Players and coaches are giving their two cents. So, again, just having confidence in yourself to be able to say, OK, this is what I'm seeing, right or wrong, this is how I'm going to call it, and then just move on. And most of the time, you actually are correct. I think that just having that confidence when going to get to that point, once you go through all these different phases, you get to the stage where you can back that. So if it doesn't happen overnight, you will go through this and it's those kind of stages in decision making before you can get to that stage with the confidence. And then you can trust your gut and practices.

Cam Tradell [00:05:44] It's interesting that you talk about the stages, because having that feel for the game becomes really important. And it's when you're looking at the impact of an infringement versus the severity, if you know what I mean. And I like that you talk about it's a real feel. I think there's a lot in that.

Amy Perrett [00:06:01] Yeah. And definitely you don’t just have to have a feel for the game when you get to the professional level. Having a feel for the game is so important at community level. Understanding what the players are trying to get out of out of the game and most of the time, they just want to have fun, play the game with their mates and have a game that can move and not stop and start all the time. So again, like I said, normally when we are refereeing community Rugby, we don't go to that stage and try to prove that we know everything and what those 40 odd penalties in a game which is just way too much. It's really important more so at that community level that you understand that, that you get that flow, let the guys play. You don't have to be perfect and they'll appreciate that better. And overall, I think everyone plays and spectates will have a better experience.

Cam Tradell [00:06:53] You talked a bit there about your communication and the different stakeholders that you need to communicate with.  On the field, you're a very clear communicator. How did you hone those skills, to be precise, to make a call, to communicate well? And then what's some of the other ways that you need to communicate? I'm guessing that after games or in reviews, you've got coaches that may come and ask questions. How do you best find your method or your way of communicating? And how effective do you find that you are in your communication?

Amy Perrett [00:07:28] Communication is a big part of the journey. When you start, you probably don't say a lot. Because you don’t know what’s happening. So its best to say nothing at all, But then again, as you move on, you start commentating the game and talk too much and then you start to learn when players respond, when they don't, depending on what kind of things you might say. And I found along the way this being really short, sharp and to the point is the best thing for players and at the outside spectators around the field, because if you walk along and over-explain something, particularly when people are under fatigue, the ref, like myself might not make sense because I'm tired. The players just probably just don't understand what you said. So if you just keep it two to one or two really simple messages, they have a far better impact on the game than commentating throughout the whole game or saying nothing at all. And it's about picking when you come in and when you need to stay out. You only want to come in when you have to actually have to manage a play and you think we'll get an outcome. There's no point saying stuff if you know you're not going to get the outcome, the desire the probably just going to give a penalty anyway or they've actually done the right thing and you just don't need to say anything at all. And you said the one big thing I found that's helped my communications is refereeing seven's. There's not a lot of time to talk so when you do get that opportunity, it has to be relevant and impactful for people to understand and get those kind of changes that you want to see. So I feel like that's been playing a huge part in where I've got now. Another thing like the first time I heard myself, a community that I think I was doing, a woman, a women's national tournament. And the first time I'd seen footage and heard myself. And it's a very uncomfortable moment with this, you know, you hear yourself refereeing because you just don't realise what you say and how often. And even just the tone of your voice you don't realise it's like that. So you learn from it where you can and listening back to to your conversations, to your tone of voice when you decided to say something, when you didn't and whether that was the right thing at that time of the game. And then communication like post match and coaches can always be a little bit tricky, depending on how the game went. And pretty much the only thing these things the other team were doing wrong, just to put those kind of images in your head and could manipulate me the way potentially. I think that might be the intention. And then post match, now you've got to really think about how you how you talked to a coach after the game. You don't want to put yourself in a corner or the next time you might say something the week after where you promised you wouldn't do. This is really it's a bit of a chess match, almost a bit of an arm wrestle still post much to communicate because there'll be times where they're just venting because they probably under pressure. You've got to understand that and not get overly offended and it's nothing personal, just part of the job. But there are times when you need to just back yourself. And this decision was correct for these reasons and it's a bit of an arm wrestle. And what I find helps is my referee coach, so the person I trust to be able to tell me or to assist me when I review the game this. I'm pretty good. I like reviewing games of around decisions, but not scrums always. That's one area that I'm never one hundred percent confident. I always seek help to make sure I got my decision making right, but around a tackle, I know that kind of area, you know for me, I can sit and review and I go, I got that one wrong or I got that one right so I don't really need extra eyes for that. Where I do need my coach is around those interactions with players and understanding the flow, or dominance, rewarding things being dominant around the game. But whether I set up the game so that it could get that nice flow and open rugby towards the back end and let players do their thing, I didn't have to come in. So it's those kind different aspects I'd go to my referee coach and talk to him about.

Cam Tradell [00:12:23] It's so important to have that sounding board. And it sounds like you've got great self-awareness and self reflection. But to have those extra set of eyes on those areas that you're unsure, I mean, maybe the gaps or where you could improve and be better, that's really interesting that you rely on it heavily, too.

Amy Perrett [00:12:39] Yeah, definitely. I think in all stages, like, no one's perfect and you always have to have that growth mindset and you have to know you're constantly learning something new each game and you're learning a new challenge and you kind of got to embrace if you want to get better, it's never going to be perfect. And there's always something that you can work on for the next game and having that person to kind of bounces those ideas off and it helps you kind of reach those goals that we need to make, because if you're just doing it on the run, you might not realise you do something. It could just be a tiny little fix and it can improve your game.

Cam Tradell [00:13:16] Entering into anything with the growth mindset if fantastic. Shifting gears a little bit. You've been referring fifteens at Super Rugby. And changing gears now to Sevens Rugby, having been appointed to officiate at the Olympics, how do you manage the two of those? Because they're two fairly distinct sports or fairly different sports. Even though the skills are the same, it's a different pace and a different mindset. How do you go about swapping between the two sports, especially at the elite level?

Amy Perrett [00:13:43] Yeah, it's something I think everyone struggles with, even the players coming back. For me, I find it harder to come back into the fifteens, sevens again I think sevens comes more natural and comfortable. It suits the style of my personality, I think, because I actually don't like going up and having to talk to people all the time on the field or do the pre-match where the sevens, I don't have to say much, I can just blow my whistle, move on. The game doesn't last too long. I can reflect straightaway on that game because then I have another game in about an hour or two hours, so I'm not sitting on something for a whole week, overthinking things that I did in the game. I can just get straight into it and move on. But I think the key things that are different and can be very difficult in decision making in sevens is very black and white that we don't operate in that grey area. You've been infringed or you haven't. And there's not a lot of management. So you see something, you generally just penalise and move on. And it's good because the players accept that as well. What they want to do is they just want to take a quick tap and move on. There is no kind of argument or like I said, there's not really that chess match or that arm wrestle with captains that you are trying to deal with. We could try to work with it either way and everyone is trying to manipulate to their advantage. So when I come back into fifteens, what I really try and focus on is making those relevant decisions, taking a breath before I call something, because the instinct is to just put my whistle to my mouth and blow a penalty. And so it's just taking that extra half a second just to see what happens, whether I can play away from something or whether I blow that penalty then and there so it takes a few weeks to kind of get that feel back, like if it's sevens it's that start and stop, not a lot of flow because if you do blow a lot of penalties you might blow ten penalties in 14 minutes, which is a lot. Whilst in fifteens you wouldn't dare to do that once you start giving out all the cards and then the spotlight coming on you, which is again, something you don't really want so for me it takes a few. Even the number of people on the field can be quite difficult around a tackle or a ruck because when it's one on one, very easy to see what's happening. So when got three of four people diving into something, you kind of get a bit lost sometimes. And then that makes you uncomfortable. Sometimes when you're uncomfortable, that's when you revert to what you know, and that probably shouldn't happen. So yeah, just being really that I just need to take my time, get the feel for the game, don't impose myself too much. And in the first ten minutes I start to get that feel back in and they'll still be a few decisions that I will get and review, and, you know, I didn't need to call them, I'm a little bit pedantic with sevens penalty, but yeah, just reflecting on that during the game and after and hopefully the next week, I'm a bit better get a bit more flow.

Cam Tradell [00:17:18] Amy, thanks very much for your time this afternoon and sharing your insights. Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Lauren Burns

Introduction [00:00:00] This episode contains references to issues that some athletes and people in high performance sport may find troubling. If you need support, reach out to confidential services such as AIS Be Heard and the AIS Mental Health Referral Network. Details can be found on the AIS website ais.gov.au

Cam Tradell [00:00:21] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and i am the Project Lead for Coaching Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. We're pleased to have Lauren Burns join us today. Lauren won an Olympic gold medal in taekwondo when the sport made its debut in the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. Lauren is currently working with the AIS Gold Medal Ready program, assisting athletes preparing for Tokyo and Paris. She is currently completing her PhD in lifestyle practises and mindset of elite athletes, and has published papers of her work in the British Journal of Sports Medicine. Welcome, Lauren. It's great to have you on the line.

Lauren Burns [00:01:18] Thanks so much for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:01:21] Interesting journey for you, and I know from winning a gold medal at the 2000 Olympics to where you are today and publishing research papers. I'd be really keen to understand. But what are your research papers? You know, what are they really about? And what was the motivation to actually duck diving down into your subject area?

Lauren Burns [00:01:40] Well, it's funny you ask what the motivation was, because I think with research, it never really well, you don't always go where you first set off to to go. So I my background is I'm also a naturopath and nutritionist, and I was actually looking at doing a clinical trial on organic food and how that impacted athletes. So basically, whether, you know, eating pesticides could impact cognitive function, reaction time, performance, that sort of thing. So that was where we started that we ended up not getting the funding for that trial, and I don't know, I think one day maybe I'll do that. So as part of looking at at food, we were also looking at lifestyle. And that was kind of the umbrella to sort of when you look at the research with athletes, there's a lot out there and a lot of it is sort of broken down into different areas. And they sort of, you know, they silos and, you know, you might have all the sports psychology research and then you got all the biomechanics or the physiology and the nutrition. You know, they're huge. That fit a lifestyle as a holistic framework is not really looked at. So I guess to start with, I decided to go to the top and I chose, you know, Olympic and Paralympic gold, medal winning athletes or world championships, depending on the benchmark of their sport. So, you know, some some sports don't have Olympics like surfing, for example. I has people like Layne Beachley, Ian Thorpe, Russel Mark, Kerri Pottharst, Jackie Cooper, like these incredible athletes. And I purposely sampled them so I had a real cross-section of individual athletes, team sports, in a small team or a team as a big team, so I have Chole Dalton from Rugby Sevens. Combat Sports. I had Carmen Marton who's the world champion in taekwondo. So I had this real cross-section. And really we were just, you know, Cathy Freeman asking what, you know, what do you do with your life? How what did you think? What did you attribute your success? What did you think impacted your performance? Negatively, positively? There were very open ended questions and we didn't really know where we were going to go from that. So it was it was actually fabulous. And I think when I first retired myself from elite competition, I didn't really want anything to do with high performance sport. I didn't think I certainly didn't think I'd be doing research. But coming full circle. I've just you know, I really enjoyed this process and especially seeing some of the results that have come come from it. And then we did a larger study, a survey which we surveyed Australian athletes from podium to emerging athlete. But that was also another they all kind of actually supported the findings that were in our initial study.

Cam Tradell [00:04:27] That's interesting. You sort of started to talk about, you know, some of the positives and some of the negatives. Were there common traits coming through with regards to absolute imperatives at the at the development years of athletes that came through is just being key and core to their success?

Lauren Burns [00:04:44] Well, I think, you know, intrinsic motivation, unstructured play a really big markers in development. We didn't really ask a lot about there wasn't a lot about upbringing necessarily. Someone more like, you know, obviously naturally gifted. I mean, Russell Mark talks about like to throw anything in the air and he can shoot it. Like he was just sort of born with that ability and others sort of had to work a lot more.  But that intrinsic motivation was certainly something that was cultivated and developed in all those athletes. It was really apparent. So psychological attributes were just outstanding. So that realistic optimism, resilience, that ability to be knowledge seekers, going out, finding anything, leaving no stone unturned, being really resourceful. That intrinsic motivation by all of those attributes were really strong. And then there were these other elements. So it was really this those psychological attributes, the performance strategies, which obviously we're talking once you talk to athletes at that level, they sort of you know, it's not about their skill necessarily or their talent. I mean, those things are a given. They've worked so hard to get to that point that that's really well established. Then the lifestyle practises, which is something, again, that I as I mentioned, it wasn't really where I thought I was going to go, but that was quite, quite fascinating. And then I think the thing that really stood out to me was the importance of interpersonal relationships and how that can attenuate stress and how intrinsic that is to to performance and those four elements of psychology, performance, relationships and lifestyle, it's like there's a there's this it's like a dynamic interplay. So those elements are like a tilt of where the athlete needs to lean into those areas more. And that's something that's about and is very, very apparent with that mastery level athlete, because it's about their ability to self regulate and to be able to lean into that, like to be able to get those psychological skills to draw on their knowledge in that space and or do they need to go and catch up with a friend and have a laugh or, you know, talk to the coach or hang out with, you know, go to their parents for dinner and, you know, like those. So that's something that those athletes that are at that top level have really they know themselves so well that they're able to do that without really thinking. And that's sort of where, you know, you want to get to in that space is being able to move between those elements.

Cam Tradell [00:07:23] That's really interesting. Did anything come out in your research that talks about, you know, where people do go when they want to get that help and support?

Lauren Burns [00:07:30] In terms of a positive way to motivate people, is this level of challenge and support and I haven't written about that a lot in my papers, but I certainly wrote quite extensively on it in my thesis. And its that level of being able to to challenge someone you want people to stretch. And we're talking about, you know, if you're going to the Olympic Games or you're going for a gold medal, you need to rise to that occasion so that the athletes want be challenged, the coach wants to challenge them. And so you want people to grow and you want them to stretch that they need to do that and have the need to have that respectful environment, and to be able to, you know, have the support backing there as well and to feel like they were supported and I know with me, my coach, my club coach, like he always pushed me and challenged me, especially mentally in ways that I never thought that I could grow. But I always knew he had my back. And he was he had my best interests at heart. And I could say to him, this is too much. Or, you know, I always felt like there was a really open dialogue. But, you know, I think there's also there's just human decency as well, like just being a good person, you know, just and being, you know, getting the best out of someone is not, you know, putting them down or making them feel less than or,  yeah about, you know, specific body characteristics or anything like that. So that that can be quite damaging for life, and one of the things that when I was writing up the paper about the I wrote an editorial piece about interpersonal relationships specifically that was published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine. So I can give that to you. I can give it to you and you can share it with your listeners. But one of the things that we that I highlighted in that paper is that unfortunately, and this is in the world, but certainly in Australia as well as athletes, progress along their journey, as the higher they get in the performance pathway, the higher chance there is of bullying, ostracism, violence, sexual assault, all kinds of abuse, harassment, coercion. Now, that's really unfortunate. So it is topical. And, you know, this is great. We're having these kinds of conversations at the moment because those things shouldn't be happening. And, you know, you think about our kids and we, you know, have great community involvement, that kids go up and play sport and they get involved in teams. And if they want to progress, they go further and, you know, and then they get into this little hamster wheel of a elite sport and you don't want them to have all of those things happen. So I guess part of putting that in the editorial is that we need to speak about this and to, you know, keep talking about it until it's not there anymore. And there's a lot of things that we can put in place to to educate our coaches and support staff and people that are around the athletes, because that's one of the things that we found was highly important. And the athletes, you know, said that they often valued some of the support staff more than they did the coach, so you know the massure, the physio, the people that are travelling. And, you know, I think there's a lot in that. But when I was thinking about that, it wasn't just that the massure was a nice person, but they were human touch, there's regularity. Often the massure's travelling with them, or they're seeing them every day. And there's also a sense of, you know, there might be some more power dynamics with the coach where you've got selection or whatever that might be going on. It's a little bit more high pressure. And when an athlete is just sitting, lying on the table or getting their ankles strapped by the physio, whatever, they can just chat. And so I think these you know, these service providers, you know, they have a great role to play in performance. So and, you know, a lot of the some of the work that I was drawing on when I wrote this piece and I talk about it in the article, is how, you know, quality relationships, so people that you feel comfortable with, they don't have to be, you know its not a Disney. It's not all utopic, but those people that you can be real, authentic self with, they actually being around them, are staying in close proximity, can lower cortisol levels. And a lot of your stress markers will come down to just being near someone which, you know, we kind of all know, like we have good friends that you just hang out with. You feel great just being with them or, you know, you "oh I'm so glad we caught up." it was awesome seeing them, I just feel, you know, they just lift you and, you know, people are like that. We made that human connection.

Cam Tradell [00:12:10] When you talk about that, I think about the role that that community has to to service that with regards to providing athletes, players, participants with that ability to if they do need to talk, they do need help. They do need support, is that it can almost cultivate athletes and condition them so that for the one percent that actually get up to podium performance level or, you know, the small percentage that if we can arm athletes and participants with the tools to navigate through that of they are faced with something like that, I think that becomes very, very powerful with regards to, you know, regaining their power in situations that you're talking about.

Lauren Burns [00:12:51] That's right. And one of the great things about sport is that many of the skills that you learn while you're playing sport or you're involved in, you know, a community level, grassroots, whatever level of sport and recreation, those skills are relevant in so many different areas. So, you know, it's not just getting someone to compete at a mastery level or an Olympic Games or world championships. It's also, you know, this is about growing our community and our culture and keeping people active. And, you know, so there's so many elements to along that pathway that if we can support people and provide skills and it, you know, for their health and wellbeing and, you know, there's just so many benefits, really. So we don't want people having a bad experience and stopping it. And then they always have this negative association with board or the coach so that they don't want to go back to that. But that's not good.

Cam Tradell [00:13:53] I like what you said before. It's about that community cohesion as well, about sort of reflecting your community and reflecting who you want to be so aspirationally you might not want to play for Australia. That might not be what you want to be aspirationally, but you want to be a better person. You want to be better yourself and sports a great conduit for it.

Lauren Burns [00:14:10] Yeah. And we talk talking in the Gold Medal Ready program. We talk about experiential avoidance and, you know, reminding athletes of that it is our job as human nature is that as we get towards something that's harder, we our mind is like go back, don't do this. It's hard. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't like it, you know, but to do any of those great things in life like to finish your degree or to finish running a half marathon or maths or whatever it might be, you have to move. You have to lean into that discomfort. And that's where that coaches and support teams can be really influential and team-mates and, you know, social scaffold. But, you know, those things, you know, sports is such a nice parallel for it. It because, you know, I mean, I took my son got his black gold in taekwondo and, you know, there was times when he didn't want to do it. And that's what he pushed through and he got it. And so now that can be well, you didn't want to do this. And it's the same with you know homework or, you know, study or finishing your work or getting a submission or whatever it might be that you're doing it. Sometimes we have to just lean into that discomfort a little bit, and that's when we grow and we stretch.

Cam Tradell [00:15:24] Fantastic. Lauren, thank you so much. We really, really appreciate your time this afternoon. It's always good to catch up and talk. Really appreciate you've given us a lot to think about there. And thank you so much. Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating, or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Traddell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Disclaimer [00:15:57] If you need support, reach out to confidential services such as AIS Be Heard and the AIS Mental Health Referral Network, details can be found on the AIS website. ais.gov.au

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Brad Donald

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I am the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's Coaching and Officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today, I'm joined by Brad Donald, who has held many coaching and administrative roles over the last 20 years with the National Rugby League, including Game Development Manager, Elite Pathways Manager and the Head Coach of the JILLAROOS, the Australian National Rugby League women's side. Brad, I'm really keen on getting an understanding from you of now coaching females who are coming through the system. They're coming in from multisport backgrounds. Have you noticed that the skill levels are different or that they've got a lot to offer rugby league?

Brad Donald [00:01:03] Oh, most definitely. I think one of the one of the things that happened when I transitioned across to the female side of rugby league, a lot of my mates and players and people involved in the game, the first thing they say is, oh, gee, the females are so much more skilful now. I think they're a little bit forgiving in terms of, you know, we make, the women seem to make more mistakes than what our guys do. But you'll see more players that can kick or can pass or and traditionally they've come from, say, 360 degree sports. Soccer where where there's a number, everybody has to kick in soccer, netball, basketball, AFL. And that holds them in really good stead. They basically come with a whole range of skills. And I think it's a it's a really prime time to be a female athlete, because if you're a good athlete and you and you've got all those skills, you can pretty much try everything. It's something that we encourage amongst our male sports. And I've even heard like in the US where, you know, they've they've picked kids way too young to participate in one sport and sort of, you know, mums and dads have pushed those kids to to be Baseballers and put them in the in the batting nets for, you know, six, seven, eight years of their life. But they haven't had the opportunity to try other sports because they, you know, haven't hedged their bets at all. And the poor kids haven't had that experience. So when they get to universities and they get the colleges, I know that they're encouraging them to play other sports as part of their as part of their development. So we've been really fortunate. I can just think in the past we've had players like Julia Robinson, who has come across from state netball and a year later is playing for the Jillaroos. Meg Ward, who's been a soccer player and played at representative level. We've had junior jillaroos sorry, the Socceroos or the Matildas. Sorry, we've had we've had players, part of the Matildas program that have played for Australia one and two years later. So it's most definitely great that they can show up with with such great skill set. And it's great that there's so many opportunities for females to participate in all their sports now.

Cam Tradell [00:03:13] Yeah, that's brilliant. Is there a process that you've got in place or is that is it maybe not a set process, but a way that you go about coaching them to hone their skills? So if they're coming from netball or they're coming from another sport, how do you identify what it is that they can do? And then how do you sort of bring them on the journey to utilising those skills into Rugby League?

Brad Donald [00:03:35] Yeah, I think it's like there's a couple of different processes and and it's all part of the pathway. So we have things like talent ID days, identification days where we we test the strength, we test the speed, we test the aerobic capacity of of players. But it's when you get when you get a player that might have a great offload, like we've got a shot putter in our team that was, you know, close to getting Commonwealth Games selection. And she's big and strong and she has an unbelievable offload. So like more so than, look we definitely want to hone the skills and and teach them the traditional skills and things that would teach them in Rugby League. But it's also about seeing what else they bring to the table. So it's a really great time to be a coach in this female space because we can utilise their skills. I think about I just spoke before about Julia Robinson. Like I've never seen a female player that can move while the balls in the air so she can put herself in this space, but catch the ball outside of it. But that's come from a netball background. And, you know, I think we've seen we've seen instances of that in the male game even recently in the NRL. And people are going, wow. And and I think that's the things that we've got to look for as coaches when we bring in players across from other sports.

Cam Tradell [00:04:48] When you're pulling these teams together, I mean, you being the national Jillaroos Coach and you're pulling them from different systems and different franchises or, you know, from the state systems, et cetera, how do you go about meshing that or gelling that with their skills from their states and so on? How do you jel that into a team that's cohesive and makes sense for at the Australian level?

Brad Donald [00:05:10] I think it's really like it's a privileged position to be in and and me understanding that, our staff understanding that and then every player that comes into that environment, understanding that like this is a national jersey. It's the you are the best player at that current time in Australia. That's why you've been selected. So that team or any other team, I think it's it's really a. Important for the players to understand why, and I like why is why is that Jersey there? So we talk a lot about the history. The Jillaroos first match was in 1995. There was a there was an Australian team that was put together in 1993. The history isn't that long. It's not like the Kangaroos back to 1908, but we talk a lot about the history of the jersey, what the players went went through before. And part of bringing the team together I think is especially with what I've found with females is, that they are socially connected differently to guys. There's less of a hierarchy. So I find it really beneficial for every player to sort of talk a little bit about their story, what brought them to the national jersey. And and we probably go through that once a year. And we've got new new players that come in into the system every year. So it's really, really important that everybody understands the journey of all their mates. And and when you get in that environment and you hear about the person opposite you in the circle and how they got to be part of the jillaroos system, it makes you want to do more. It makes us as coaches want to do more for every single one of those players. So I know it bonds and connects the players. And it also makes the jersey a much more stronger commodity within that group as well. And the understanding of what it meant from everyone that pulled it on in 1993 to those players that have pulled it on and taken the field in that match.

Cam Tradell [00:06:57] The piece around mentoring and your role as a coach, knowing that the NRL have just appointed two females in the states spaces. How many females have been appointed in the state space now?

Brad Donald [00:07:08] Yeah, so we've got female coaches in both the New South Wales and Queensland Origin teams, which is a fantastic move for the game having these ladies. They've been in the system for a very long time. We don't have a great deal of female coaches traditionally, which is a shame. And it's part of our role to make sure that we do empower. Now, we've got a number of ex-players which are a very clever and know the game very well. And it just comes back to my previous point about having that confidence. And they've definitely got the competence, but having the confidence to step up and be the Head Coach where there's there's a lot of pressure. It's just so great to see that. And we've got Kylie Hiller as the New South Wales Head Coach Tahnee Norriss, the Queensland State of Origin Head Coach this year would be really great to see those guys do battle later in the year.

Cam Tradell [00:07:52] What's your relationship with them as you're coming through? How do you work with those two coaches as they're coming through?

Brad Donald [00:07:59] Yeah, it's really important that we work with them. I've been fortunate enough to coach both of them in some capacity over the last couple of years anyway. But, you know, Tahnee, a fair while ago and Kylie more recently, but making sure that we offer our skills and experience as well as learning from those guys because they've got a lot to offer as well. And I could honestly say that I've learnt just from them in the last couple of years or even more recently, just in their short time, like Kylie, short time in the game as a coach. But I think it's a really important ingredient that, it's really hard to have a full male coaching staff with a with a team of females. And there's so many examples of we think we understand, but we don't. And and that's why it's always it's great to see some female Head Coaches now who can temper how they're the rest of the females are actually feeling within that group. So I think the balance is good if you've got a female om staff. But it's even better now to see that we've got some female Head Coaches that have been produced.

Cam Tradell [00:09:03] Brad, I'd be really interested to know what's the NRL vision for Women's Rugby League.

Brad Donald [00:09:08] Yeah, look, I think this is all sports are looking at this at the moment. And I'll just sort of quickly touch on why I got involved. It was about ten years ago, I'd move to Queensland and I got asked to help a female team and it was a team to go to the state championships. And I went down and I was fortunate enough to coach about six or seven just in this one session, six or seven ladies that had played at the top of the game for ten, twelve, thirteen years. You know, this is the Tahnee Norriss', Karen Murphy's, Nat Dwyer's. And what I picked up straight away was that we hadn't looked after the game at all. And these ladies, I talked about a video session and they'd never heard of that before. So I had this great sense of responsibility personally from from this point. And I know it had I knew there were other people in the building that had started talking about female rugby league who felt exactly the same way. And it wasn't too long before it ended up on the NRL's agenda. I was an employee at the NRL at the time, and before long we'd started to put together a strategy. And I think if we look at that strategy now, we've got a we've got a a pathway strategy nationally, which matches our boys. It's going to take us a little bit of time. And we've tried to expedite that. We've got a an under 19's National Championship happening this year. So every player from every state in Australia has access to that. It'll be bringing together two hundred and eighty of the best female Rugby League players into one venue, which has never been done before, and I think what we need to do, it's a basic philosophy at the NRL, whatever is offered to males is offered to females. And we've got to make sure that we can do that in every aspect of our game, from being a participant to a coach to sports trainer, physiotherapist, whatever it is. So I think that's our philosophy at the NRL now and making sure that those opportunities for females are there. It makes sense, 51% of our population are females. You know, lots and lots of mums make decisions around the household and it makes good business sense as well as doing the right thing. So I think as we move forward, we're going to see we've got four NRL W teams at the moment. There won't be long before we start talking about six and eight. And there's a lot more ladies running around the country playing Rugby League. And that'll be a happy day for all of us at the NRL.

Cam Tradell [00:11:20] I think critical learning of each other and sort of developing together, I think's a fantastic way of putting it is the fact that we all learn from other people's experiences. Brad, I want to thank you very, very much for joining us today. That's really insightful and impactful. Thanks for that. Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series Kate Jacewicz

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello, and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:35] Today, we're joined by one of Australia's premier officials, Australian football referee Kate Jacewicz. Kate's refereeing journey commenced by chance one day when she was asked to pick up the whistle for a match that her brother was playing in. Prior to that event, Kate had been an avid football player. Since making her way into officiating, Kate has refereed at the highest levels, including Australia's W-League, the A-League, the FIFA World Cup and Olympics. Kate, thanks for joining us today.

Kate Jacewicz [00:01:05] Thank you for having me, Cam.

Cam Tradell [00:01:06] Can you just give us a bit of insight to what sports did you play, and then how did this journey start?

Kate Jacewicz [00:01:11] Well, I originally am from the Gold Coast in Queensland, and I was a swimmer to start with. My mum, obviously, being in Queensland wanted us to learn to swim and I had two young male friends, like family friends, and they both played football and anything that they did, I wanted to do, so I pestered mum to join a football team, the local football team, which is Mudgeeraba junior soccer club. That was my club for 15 or so years, and I remember my first game was for my brother, actually my younger brother, who's little miniroos roo ball referee never showed up at an away club and mum was like, "Oh Kate's here she can do it". So I got to run around for my first game, um, you know unpaid that type of thing because I was at another club, but I really, really loved it and I loved football, and I guess I loved reflecting back on it now, I guess what I really loved about it was the analytics of the game of football and, you know, being the decision making and the thinking around football like me as a 13 year old girl didn't understand that. But you know, retrospectively, now I can see what drew me to it and just remembering my thoughts around, you know, just being involved, seeing the game unfold around me, the emotions, you know, the excitement of the kids, you know, a game of football is like a really good TV drama, right? It's got everything and you get to experience the highs and lows of both teams. Yeah, that's me as a 30 something year old now being able to reflect on it, but as a 13-year-old kid, I just loved the game and loved being involved in it. So, mum took me to my first like level, like entry level referee course. She did it with me, and from there I just refereed every Saturday at my junior club. I was still playing at the time, so I refereed, I played, I coached until a certain point where, you know, people in football were all starting to make a name for myself, though, like, you know, you have to give up something. And I’m like "oh, I don't really want to". I definitely wasn't going to give up playing because that's my first love. And so, I gave up coaching to pursue refereeing, and that's when I got invited to state titles in Queensland. And then I got invited on to national titles and just the career snowballed from there.

Cam Tradell [00:03:51] That's a cool story. And you say you went from player, I'm guessing on Saturday and refereeing on Sunday, sort of thing. Is that right?

Kate Jacewicz [00:04:00] Yeah. Well, on the Gold Coast, I was playing in the women's competition on a Monday night, so the girls in women's played Monday nights while still playing with the boys up until I was 17 years of age. So, we got to play Friday nights and then Saturday mornings was my, Saturday and Sundays was when I was able to whistle in the junior competitions and then be an assistant referee in the in the men's senior competitions until I worked my way up until when I whistled in the senior men's competitions.

Cam Tradell [00:04:27] It's always an interesting mix, isn't it? Between you say your true love's playing and yet refereeing clearly is a love, but those two things sometimes don't go hand in hand is playing and refereeing. How do you find the importance of you understanding the game really well from the player's perspective and how that assists or helps your refereeing?

Kate Jacewicz [00:04:46] Yeah, I think, you know, I'm not saying that every referee needs to play the game, but I think it serves, you know, as an advantageous skill, I guess, you know, understanding the emotions of a player, the frustrations of a player, the ins and outs of the game, being a player and a player for so long, who played in the middle of the field, so the midfield. But the referee’s movement is quite similar as well to a midfielder. So you're able to you can read the play, you know, when the ball's going to go long, you know when there's a press you need to press, you know, when it generally nine times out of 10, when there's going to be a miss kick because just the way the player is facing, there is no way they're going to be able to play the ball where they want to play, so it certainly gives you a lot of insight into the into the game of football and into players behaviour, but also the way that they play the game. So, I'm really, really grateful that I'm able to bring those skills that I learnt as a player transfer into the skills, as a as a referee.

Cam Tradell [00:05:59] It's interesting you're talking about the emotions, and you talk about the highs and the lows when you hit the lows, how do you deal with that? Is it different from community to performance to how you would deal with it? Or is it the same process or how do you deal with it?

Kate Jacewicz [00:06:13] Certainly, I would say there is minute differences in in the way subtle differences that I would speak with a community player or a lower-level player versus, you know, the top players in the world, you know, playing for the national teams. But I think now I'm starting to find my feet at an international level, and my personality is starting to come out, so I'm very much a referee that likes to use my personality and I like to use a bit of humour, I like to build connections with players on the field. I feel that you know... when I mean build a connection, It's more like... I respect them. I respect them on a professional level, and I would never talk down to them. But certainly, if they're trying to talk down to me, I would then put them in their place and be like, "Hang on a minute, like, your behaviour or your tone right now is completely unacceptable or inappropriate would you speak this way to someone serving you coffee" or something like this? And you know, try to remind them of the human side of the referee. I very much take this approach in community football, or you know back in Australia, you know, trying to connect with players on a on a human level. But again, it's the same... I take the same approach and that is building the respect from a very simple level, I guess.

Cam Tradell [00:07:43] That rapport building can, I guess, help both the referee as well as the players to understand the nuances in the way that you let a game flow. Do you try to set the tone of the game, or do you let the players sort of set the tone of the game of, you know, the pace, the ferocity, or how do you sort of navigate through what sort of game is going to unfold in front of you?

Kate Jacewicz [00:08:04] Yeah, that's a good question. I 100 percent, let the players do that. It's their game. I'm just a part of it. And you know, it's, I don't want to impact negatively or influence the game any more than I need to. I'm there when I when I need to be and I'm not there when I don't need to be. I'm very much I work in the background. But in saying that, you know, when I'm communicating on a field and I'm communicating with my team, especially one of the techniques I try to use is I kind of speak like I'm speaking to everyone around me, but I'm actually directing the information to my team and being like, right, I'm looking here. Make sure you get the other, the reverse angle, like I'm going to be looking at the aerial challenge between these two players. And then those two players, when I say their names, they look at me and are like "right, she knows exactly what... they know exactly what I'm looking at and what I'm directing my team to be looking at as well. Like, alright, I'm expecting possible hands in the aerial challenge, like, you know, and then players throwing elbows and that type of thing. So, I do it in a way where I, yes, I am directing the game, but you know, it's almost like maximum benefit, minimal interference, I’ve just stolen that from, you know, VAR philosophy. But that's the way I try to operate as a as a referee as well. It's their game. I'm a part of it, but I'm certainly going to try to facilitate this match to the best of my ability so we can maximise the most out of this game

Cam Tradell [00:09:46] At the community level, a lot of the time there are people who are good enough to stick their hand in the air to help you on the side, how do you communicate to those people and make them feel like one -they're a part of what you're doing, but that they belong and they're important. You got any methods that you use?

Kate Jacewicz [00:10:02] Now as, I guess, an established referee. I do it this way back when, you know, 15, 10, 15 years ago, I probably didn't. Maybe I didn't have the confidence or the experience. But one thing that I would certainly suggest for you to try is communicate the same way you would communicate with a headset on. And I just amplify my voice the same way that we can talk to our team with you know the communication system. I still look at my team if I'm if I'm talking to them as well so we can use gestures and or body language facial gestures, and they can see that I'm looking at them. I mean, I remember distinctly one time the assistant referee couldn't hear me, but I could hear them, so then I was doing some gestures back to them to be like right " this is what I'm saying", type thing to acknowledge that. But in terms of the... like you said, the advice, I would amplify my voice and I would the same way I'd want the players around me to hear it. I just put what I want to communicate out into the world so that my assistant referees would hear me as well. Because, yeah, we're a part of the game and communication is vital, right? So, I would say that that's how I'd involve my team.

Cam Tradell [00:11:26] So it's like, you're talking to yourself, but talking out loud and talking to everyone. But is it what is actually going on in your mind? You just basically voicing what's happening in your head the whole time? So, does it sometimes come out like a little bit of commentating?

Kate Jacewicz [00:11:40] Yeah, we do have to describe what we see. And I've been fortunate enough, that's my style of refereeing anyway. So, the change hasn't really been too significant for me. If a player asked me, like, you know, what was that for? I'd be like, well, you know, it was, it was this for this, and they're like Oh, that's what you saw. I'm like, I'm just telling you what I see. I'm only calling what I'm seeing. I'm not a referee that would be like, you know. I'm not one that like kind of commentates and coaches the players like, don’t do this, don't do that, don't do this. And there are some referees that will, yeah, like it's almost like they're a coach out there being like, look easy, easy, hands down, hands down, like this type of thing. You know, players are players they'll either listen to you or they won’t. That's their choice. But you know, in terms of what information is critical that or like is, you know, advantageous, I guess, or is helpful. Yeah, that's the type of information that I like to provide. So, it almost is in a way, I am talking out loud, but it's information that is critical to, I guess, the management of the match.

Cam Tradell [00:12:53] Now that you're where you're at or whether you're a great community coach, do you have people that you call on to sort of ask advice or to give you feedback and so on? So, two parts, is, who's helped you get to where you are and then when you are refereeing at whatever level, have you got groups that you sort of lean on to ensure that you're doing a good job and to give you honest feedback?

Kate Jacewicz [00:13:16] Yeah. Well, in the beginning, a few names pop into my head. One is Allan Kibler, who was the referee’s manager in Queensland. He, I guess, found me at that state titles that I spoke to you about earlier. And then Barry Sutch is another one who is another Queensland referee manager and a few others that I'd like to kind of make note of and that is Gary Power, Jenny Bray, Steve Fenech all within the refereeing community down in New South Wales. And I mean, when I was coming through as a teenager and in my early 20s, I didn't really know the world of refereeing. And these are the people that, you know, lit the fire and said that, you know, the world is out there like it's the world game. You can travel to all these exotic destinations, whistling football all over the world. And, but I didn't really know what that meant until like, now I've lived the journey and I can see that I've got firsthand experience in that. So, it's nice that like I said, look back retrospectively and see what they were talking about and how it's come to life or come to fruition. And now ah... The people that I talk to the most are probably my peers, and I'm fortunate enough that I'm a FIFA referee and I'm on the World Cup candidate program and I've got access to, you know, some of the best referees from all over the world and refereeing at an elite level is quite a personal, a little bit isolating, but also it's a really unique experience that not a lot of people have that lived experience with. And what I mean by that is it's such an intricate, I guess, pathway and lived experience like what you... the emotions that you feel, the learnings that you take, the learnings that you not only take professionally but also personally. We all experience in some way shape or form very similar experiences, but are slightly different because we're all different people, but, and also from different cultures and different countries as well. So, I'm under no illusion that my journey is far more privileged than that, say someone coming from another country. But yeah, we all share this unique experience together and we have that like personal, firsthand insight into what it feels like to be an elite referee. So, I would say they're my peers that I've met along the way.

Cam Tradell [00:16:12] It's really interesting that you talk about, it's the same experience because once you're on the pitch, it's the same experience. However, where they've come from is the diversity that they bring. Does that help with regards to providing perspective on different ways that you can manage games, and have they helped you sort of hone your skills?

Kate Jacewicz [00:16:32] Oh, absolutely. So, for example, I was lucky enough to meet my hero in person, and that was Bibiana Steinhaus from Germany. You know, one of the first females in the world to get to the top in that in men's professional football. And I, you know, was totally, you know, fangirling at this point. But she is so humble and so kind that, you know, she didn't really care about that, and she just wanted to help. So, and she helped in her own way like I would never had the courage to be like, Hey, Bibi, you know, can you help me do this? It'd be like, we just be sitting together watching a game of football, and she'd be like, look, we could do this, this and this. We tried doing this this way, and you know, it'll work out much better for you. And I'm like, oh, wow, look, I'd never thought of it that way. So, yeah, definitely... Refereeing is about experience and learning from one another, and learning from others are either really, really good decisions, or you know others mistakes as well and sharing that insight and that's how we grow as individuals, that's how we grow the profession and that's how we grow the game. So yeah, that was, was a really cool experience and now I can, you know, just give her a text if I ever want some other little tips and advice.

Cam Tradell [00:18:10] It's amazing, isn't it, that you've got that, and if you think about your experience there the next generation coming through for you, the ones that are starting to develop here in Australia or elsewhere in the world, are you starting to find that they're starting to tap into you and your knowledge? Are you starting to have a bit more of a transitional point where you're mentoring others?

Kate Jacewicz [00:18:28] Yeah, I think so. And you know, it's almost like you don't realise it until you're there, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm in the process of, you know, the baton's been passed to me, but I'm probably the last to know and what I'm thinking just I’m entering into, you know, I guess, a general discussion or chit chat or conversation with another referee that I'm thinking is my peer actually turns around to be, you know, I'm I almost turn out to be that Bibiana Steinhaus for that young Kate Jack. And yeah, sometimes, I wish I kind of knew in the moment, I’m like, "Oh, maybe I should have taken that more seriously" or, you know, maybe, maybe I need to come up with some, you know, more meaningful stories for them or advice for them. But no, yeah, it's another learning experience for me, it's part of the journey. And, you know, I'm embracing that and really enjoying learning how to impart my knowledge in different ways to, like you said, the next gen.

Cam Tradell [00:19:38] It's interesting because sport changes so quickly. So, what sport looked like 20 years ago is very different now. So, I'm guessing that knowledge transfer becomes crucial as you're still an active referee, bringing through the next group who in 2032 with Olympic Games in Brisbane, that skill and knowledge transfer becomes key. What do you see for Australian referees in football? Is it an exciting future? Do you see good changes, or do you think we're going to need to do more work to develop high quality officials?

Kate Jacewicz [00:20:11] Yeah, that's an interesting question actually. Well, as you know, there's the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand as well, coming up and what Australia has been good at previously is producing World Cup officials on limited resources. Yeah, like I mean, just to name a few we've got, Tammy Ogston, Jackie Hereford was an option, Allyson Flynn and Sarah Ho, not to mention then Mark Shields, Ben Williams and now Chris Beath. And they’re, you know, world class officials and, I would have to say, coming through the system, the resourcing and development of referees hasn't probably been where it could have been to possibly produce double or triple the amount of the names that I just that I just said. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been, but in terms of formalising and streamlining the development, I really believe that if we want the game to grow in Australia, that it needs to be a whole game approach and firstly, the recognition that match officials as a whole is ultimately almost like your third national team. And you know, we're a part of the national competitions, whether people like it or not, we're part of the game whether people like it or not. And if you want the game to grow and develop and reach its highest limits, you need the match official’s skills and abilities to match that as well, to grow with the game. If we're left behind, when you know people are going to be standing there going well, that same narrative and rhetoric of match officials are rubbish or this referee's decision cost the game, it's like, well actually can we, you know, actually look at what we've done for match officials in this country, and have we done enough for them? So, what I'd really like to see is building the referee program for football to be more in line with you know high performance in football as well, because referees and assistant referees we're athletes to, we're elite athletes as well, and we're competing on the world stage, the same as the Socceroos and the Matildas. And while it's going to take a while, I understand that with Sporting organisations now I work for one, I understand the, you know, the things that we have to do to build that, especially on a budget. I really do believe that that will take refereeing or officiating to the next level in Australia.

Cam Tradell [00:23:16] Yeah, that's fantastic. And let's face it, without officials, we don't have sport. Kate, I really appreciate your time this afternoon and thank you so much for joining us.

Cam Tradell [00:23:33] Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Sharon Hannan

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and i'm the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:31] Today, we're very, very lucky to have Sharon Hannan join us on the phone. Hello, Sharon, how are you?

Sharon Hannan [00:00:37] I'm good. Thanks, Cameron.

Cam Tradell [00:00:56] Thanks very much for your time today. It's fantastic to have you share some of your stories. You've seen a great breadth of athletics and the sport, starting at little athletics and going all the way through to the heady heights of the Olympics. I'd be keen to understand, what's your story? How did you actually get into it and how did you grow a love for coaching in the sport of athletics?

Sharon Hannan [00:59] My daughter came home from school as a nine year old saying she had a flyer and asking me if she could join athletics and we went down the local oval and little town called Gordonvale, just south of Cairns. And yeah, I was given a job to do for the season, which was pulling the tape measure through the discus. So I didn't see a great deal, but my daughter had a great deal of fun and she loved it. And I thought it was a really good environment. I was a single mum and she made lots of friends. And at the end of the season, the people running the club wanted to move athletics from Sunday morning to a weekday afternoon. But I worked probably 30 miles away at the airport. I worked for an airline called Bush Pilots, which then became Air Queensland and subsequently Qantas link. And I couldn't get there, couldn't get there from work in the afternoon. So a couple of families were in the same boat, and I contacted Queensland Little Athletics and they helped us start up a little athletic centre in Cairns. There were centres in little towns around it, Cooktown, Innisfail, Mulgrave and Tablelands, Atherton Tablelands and so there was there was prototypes there and people who knew what they were doing and so we called a public meeting and we got started and we had eighty three kids in our first season. That was just crazy. And then we got stuck into it. Our first zone championships were in Cooktown. We bought a rattly old school bus with no windows, you know, things like that way back in the day then. At the beginning of the year that I started Cairns Little A's, there was a coaching course in Mareeba and so I went up and did that and started my coaching journey. And I just loved it because, you know on sign on days, we had probably 60 of the 83 kids all there on the first day, all looking at us, OK, what do we do now? We will go, whoa, what do we do Shaz? You know, you've done the coaching course. And it was just sort of thrown at me and, you know, but that was probably when I discovered that, "a", I could communicate and "b", the kids listen cause they were so excited about being there. And, you know, so from out of that, it's pretty easy to get some really good results for each of the kids and for the Little Athletic Centre as well. So we became very successful very, very quickly in that we only had a six week season. It was July by the time we got started. And Athletics starts in April up north. So, yeah, that's when I decided I like coaching and I've coached ever since, there hasn't been a period when I haven't coached.

Cam Tradell [00:04:23] And that's, it's amazing. And the power of the volunteers there with, you know, wanting to serve the community. You then made that leap because you've been in, you know, coaching and you've been sort of looking after Athletics or people in Athletics for some time. How did you then sort of make the transition from the early development stages into adults and even performance athletes? How did that all come about?

Sharon Hannan [00:04:47] It was a journey that I guess was happening without me even realising where I was heading. I had some senior athletes that we were doing okay and and I just kept talking to people. And thankfully, there's things called state championships and country championships and national championships and and you just meet and talk to people and ask questions and watch how they're coaching and, you know, listen to what they're saying to their athletes and lots of coaching textbooks. And I was also doing uni back in the day when I first moved to the Gold Coast. And so I had access to the library at Griffith Uni and and I did have, you know, going in and reading up on quantitative analysis from reading up on coaching and techniques and you know, those sort of things, and I learnt sort of fairly rapidly. I learnt alot at my level two course, , which is now classified as a level four accreditation. That was a 10 day course. I learnt so much, not just from the lecturers and facilitators, but from the people doing the course. That was fantastic and I've done a few of those since then and and just coached and just tried to stay a step ahead of the game, no more than, no more than the athletes that were standing in front of me knew.

Cam Tradell [00:06:18] You talk about the strength of the communities around you that support you. How important is it to leverage, you know, other people's experience and to also have mentors to help you with regards to how you develop? Have you found that as being valuable input to creating who you are as a coach?

Sharon Hannan [00:06:36] Oh, undeniably, it's really important. You know, you live in a bubble if you don't seek advice and ask questions and learn from others because so many have gone before. Unfortunately, when I first started, a lot of the printed material that was around was was published in the times of the, you know, the suspected doping in some of the countries, so some of the exercises they were doing in the sessions that they were doing that were published in those books were just outrageous. But, you know, I've never taken a programme from anywhere, but my husband so far has been my greatest mentor. He was level five soon after I moved to the Gold Coast. He was going that was a year long process back then and he was going through that and was awarded his level five in jump and so he's just been fantastic and, you know, I've done a great deal of coach education as well, and he was a teacher, maths and science. People think he was Pys. Ed., but he wasn't he was just heavily involved in athletics. He would sit in the back of the classroom and just write little notes. And then we talk about some of the things that I could do better and  some of the mannerisms that I could lose. Or change, you know, I think he's just being a fantastic mentor. Really, really good. And knew so many people already and introduced me to so many people who I might never have been in conversations with.

Cam Tradell [00:08:21] How do you create that safe environment that promotes that open communication between you two to understand one, how you feeling one day or they're feeling one day or their problems or, you know, what they feel they need to work to. How do you create that trust so that you can get that open communication going between the two of you?

Sharon Hannan [00:08:39] Because I think I'm a big believer in nurturing as a valuable coaching tool, and I think that where a lot of females have a bit of an advantage over males, you know, being a parent, you know, you are justy on the lookout for all the little signs that show someone in a bit of distress or they're a little bit sad or you know, they struggle to communicate with others in the group or whatever. So I guess that's one of my big strengths, is is just being able to notice things and then talk to the athletes, not even necessarily about what I know, but but building a belief in you know, the people around them, belief in them, that falling over or tripping or doing something wrong is not a bad thing. That it is a learning step and I don't know, I think not ever having done sport really when  I was young thats what I brought to the table, was valuable parenting skills, I guess. I was a single parent for 12 and a half years, so, I had a bit of experience.

Cam Tradell [00:10:08] It's incredible how you bring a life experience to other aspects of your coaching and so on. So that really identifying or having that self awareness around this is a key strength and it's also something that's desirable from an athlete perspective. So being a person, good person, first, coach second, to then create those environments, I think that's a really powerful sort of message.

Sharon Hannan [00:10:31] Yeah, I think so. You know, people will be surprised, really surprised at some of the things that kids talk to us about that they wouldn't talk to their parent about or, you know, the number of times that I've said to say a teenage athlete, who is having some real problems. You know, "I can talk to your mom or dad about this". "Oh, no, no". Well, you know, I'm not going to talk about it direct, but I'm just going to go and have a conversation with them and not go and say, you should be doing this. You should be saying that. Or you shouldn't be, you know, feeding them this or whatever. But I just go in and have a conversation with them about, you know, how the athlete feels or what I think would help the athlete improve. And that might better sleep patterns or better food or, you know, all of those things. So I find it hard sometimes to have conversations with parents, but you've got to try and make an environment where the athlete knows that they can talk to you and that you might be able to help them.

Cam Tradell [00:11:50] It's almost like the sport highlights or puts more attention on the need for good stakeholder management. So the way that you navigate through that, that's it's an incredible skill. And again, I guess it would help build those bonds of trust between yourself and the athlete when they see you're actually trying to help in other areas or other ways. I think that's a fantastic insight.

Sharon Hannan [00:12:55] Yeah, for sure and importantly, it works the other way. The parents will come to me and say, you know, I'm really worried that, you know, Joe Blow isn't doing enough schoolwork. And, you know, my husband and I are at the point where we're going to start excluding them from training because we've tried excluding them from social media, from their devices or whatever and that's not working. So we just wanted to talk to you about that. And I said, go, you know, go for it. But, you know, it's good when there's conversation, you know, when parents feel that they can come and seek some sort of backup or guidance or some help as well.

Cam Tradell [00:13:18]  Goal setting is about sensible stretch, but it's also about managing the expectations with how growth is measured. You're saying that most are motivated when they come to you, so therefore they've got their eyes set on something and they just want to achieve it. But setting those realistic expectations is just as important as also building them up with regards to progressions.

Sharon Hannan [00:13:18] Yeah, absolutely. And and a lot of the time they won a race at school or something and they come to you, but you introduce them to, you know, jumps and throws and other events as well because you just never know what body type they're going to end up with? How are they going to, you know, where their strengths are going to be? So you try and give them as much variety as possible. But, you know, on the other hand, I get phone calls from parents of eight year olds every Olympic year and every Commonwealth Games saying, oh, my daughter's the fastest in her grade at the school and she wants to go to the Olympics.

Cam Tradell [00:13:56] I think that multi functional approach is a much more sensible vision to the future for creating physical competence and literacy for young athletes as they develop.

Sharon Hannan [00:14:09] It's very hard to get kids to do field events sport. Because it it's movement that are way out of the ordinary, where, running is just faster walking. In their very basic conversations with themselves and but to get them to, to really think about just going and having a go and learning the skill and starting from the basics, it can be pretty hard because kids still have this real fear of failure.

Cam Tradell [00:14:46] Sharon, there's a lot for us to take away from what you've shared. Thanks very, very much.

Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@Sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Louise Sauvage

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell, and I am the Project Lead for Coaching Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. And we're fortunate enough to have Louise Sauvage join us today in the studio. Louise is recognised not just for the extraordinarily successful career as a wheelchair racer, but for her pioneering efforts in raising the profile and perception of Paralympic sport and athletes in Australia and all around the world. Welcome Louise, thanks for joining us.

Louise Sauvage [00:00:51] Thank you for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:00:54] Louise, you've got a vast experience and a long history in sport as an athlete, but also as a coach and developing athletes coming through the system. Given that you're working with professional athletes at the top end, but also developing athletes and people entering into sport, how do you go about setting acceptable challenges if you've got multiple athletes in the same group or environment?

Louise Sauvage [00:01:19] Yeah, it can be a bit tough unfortunately. In our sport, there's not a lot of coaches and not a lot of people involved in our sport. So it's a very small community. So we have to be a kind of a jack of all trades to a certain extent. Having my group on a Saturday morning, which is it doesn't hold the really elite guys, it probably has a gamut of, as you said, beginners right up to some athletes that, you know, are knocking on the door, so to speak. And you're training them all together. I think more than anything, we set different goals and different sessions for them, but then we try and work them all together. You have people chase each other, have different goals, set them time goals, set them off, handicap them and that kind of thing on the track and trying to make it fun as well as them getting a lot of a lot out of it and achieving their goals and acquiring the skills. So it can be interesting, but it does give you the full, I suppose, range of your abilities is stretched as a coach to know that you have to deal with every single level.

Cam Tradell [00:02:24] I'm guessing that your experience over time to put a little bit in your in your kit bag with regards to how you service that, knowing that you've got different talent coming through and different abilities coming through. How do you get that mix between people who are really aspirational and wanting to go as far as they can go in the sport? How do you set those goals for those people with regards to achievable milestones, considering that you've got others in there that that are never, ever going to really make that the top level, but are really keen to sort of be there, be part of the community and compete?

Louise Sauvage [00:02:59] Yeah for the guys that obviously show a lot of talent and want to get to the next level, and they're motivated to do that obviously, we have different competitions in different times. Obviously, my sport is worked on on times for different events. So we do set goals within the year and also different competitions that they can go to. You know, that's been a bit hard in the last year or so. But, you know, a lot of my guys compete regularly during the season, so they have goals to compete for, especially when they come to Canberra and go on a nice track. So they really love coming here and they get PB's and it just spurs on when they get home and get back on a slow track. So it's really good. But within the group that I have on a on a Saturday, there are the guys that, you know, possibly won't make that level, but they're definitely there to enjoy the sport and they all mix really well. It's a great community, actually. And, you know, maybe they do or they don't know how far they want to go in the sport. But it doesn't matter even if they decide, you know, a couple of years down the track that ‘I actually do want to have a crack’ well, then, you know, they still there and I'm still there for them to try and help them achieve whatever goals they want to. And not everyone will get to a Paralympic level, but they could get to national level. They could increase their 10K, you know, decrease the sorry, the 10k time. That could be their goal. So it's all relevant for the different athletes. And we try and see that they're individuals that way. You know, just getting around the track for some of the athletes and staying in their lanes is a goal. And some of my guys still struggle to do that. And so it's just it's all relevant to the to the person and the age they're at. And when they started racing.

Cam Tradell [00:04:36] It's incredible the way that you work with that vast range of people. And over time we're talking about, you know, what's in your kit bag. I'd be really interested to know the different ways that you communicate or that you personally as a coach that you've learnt over time to get different messages across.

Louise Sauvage [00:04:53] Obviously, with the elite guys, we do a lot of video analysis, photos, we do a lot of different things to show them what they're doing and how they're doing it and analyse their races and then that kind of thing to try and get them to say also technique physically actually being there with them and showing them. And you talk about the communication styles. It's funny, when I work with the national team and those guys, I seem to have a different level of communication just because they know that I've been there and done that. And they kind of know that. They know that how I know how they're feeling at a crucial moment and what they potentially might need. And they don't have to explain themselves. And it's kind of nice, I think sometimes that you don't have to do that and you get to learn the your athletes as well. And you've got that trust between you as well. So it all comes down to how you communicate, I think, and how you get along with that person. But when with my younger crew, it's just treating them like regular people and asking them questions and a lot of the time. And I can only speak from my experience a lot of time when athletes with disabilities don't always, or people with disabilities sometimes don't get talked to sometimes. Especially the younger kids, their parents are always there or someone's there and they get spoken to in that respect. When I talk to them and I'm asking them about their disability, what they can and can't do, what they can feel to a certain extent and what they can't, they kind of look at me as if to say, ‘oh, no one really asks me’. And it's kind of cool. And I'm not kind of, I don't know. I don't care what your mum's got to say, I want to know what you say and I want to know what you [feel]. And so it's kind of different to be able to talk to them that in that respect, I don't mind if they're six years old. You know, I always say I'm going to change my language, but you know, they're 13 and they're giving me a hard time because I don't know who the Avengers are. So there's lots of things like that. There's different communication levels in that respect. But it's good. It's a good little community. And, you know, it doesn't matter if they know who I am or my history. It's just the way I can relate to all of them. And we have something in common with most of us who will have a disability.

Cam Tradell [00:07:03] That's incredible in the fact that you just sort of brought together a philosophy of coaching, I think that's pretty much across anyone that you've got in front of you is you said that you find out what they can do. And I guess any coach that's standing in front of any group realistically is looking at what can they do, what can they do and what do they need to do and how you co-create a session that's suitable for the people in front of you. I think that's an art in itself. But it sounds like it's really exacerbated here, or highlighted here, because you've got people with the different abilities that it sort of makes you really coach and really innovate. Would you say that's a fair sort of [summation]

Louise Sauvage [00:07:41] Yeah, I think it makes you a better coach. Nothing's stock standard, when you're coaching someone with a disability, you're always finding ways to think outside the square, how to adapt, how to make it work to what it should look like or how it could look like. And even if a child or an adult or teenager says to me, what, I don't think I can do that, well, let's have a crack, you know, let's see what you can do. And, you know, I'll be here, and if it hurts or, you know, you don't think you can do it, then we'll stop. But let's try this. And, you know, and lead by example as well. You know, I often use the other the other kids in the group or adults to use as an example. This is how I get in and out of my chair. This is how I push. These are the gloves I use that you and I have got those or you know, this is where you trying to contact on the rim. You know, I will use my 13-year-old to help my six-year-old. You know, I go around the track and fix their steering, so it's all about, them all teaching the new people and, passing it on like I suppose I do to a certain extent. So it's good. It's really good. You know, how you can communicate between them as well and everyone's equal. It doesn't matter. I mean, I don't care. You come down on a Saturday morning, you're in a race chair, you can have a crack. I don't mind what your disability is and what level you're at.

Cam Tradell [00:08:58] It sounds like your communities of practise, which is an extremely well researched and understood area. So where we're trying to get to with nationalising, coaching and officiating, especially with regards to people having self-awareness, having someone there as a mentor to sort of help them along for people to understand their gaps or where they need help. It sounds like that's really alive and well in your space. I mean, hearing that a 13-year-old's helping out a six year old in something, one that sounds fantastic, just basically building those aspirational mentors and knowing that your aspirations are just there. It's actually the 13-year-old. It's not necessarily someone that you're seeing on TV. I think that's really interesting.

Louise Sauvage [00:09:39] Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, they say the guys, the national guys on TV, I seen them in the Paralympics and things like that. And that is the ultimate, obviously. You know, a lot of my guys come to these able-bodied meets and they see people that they've seen on TV do it and they get excited as well, which is kind of cool. They probably relate to them, but not in the same way. But, you know, we're such a small community. I think it's important that we all share our knowledge and pass it forward and are involved. And I think it's really important for them to feel like they belong as well. It's probably one of the most important things. I mean, most kids in Australia go to their Saturday morning sport or, you know, weekend sport at some stage. And, you know, they can join their local soccer club. They can go and participate. For a lot of kids with disabilities, it's not that simple. It's not that easy. They need specialised equipment or they don't fit in. They can't join in with their brothers and sisters. So for them to come along to their Saturday morning sport is you know, it's important for them to be feel part of that group and know that this is where they belong. They feel comfortable and they can all have a laugh and have new friends and, you know, be comfortable and still have a good time and enjoy their sport and be active and fit and healthy. So it's the same purpose. Yeah, it's a little bit harder sometimes.

Cam Tradell [00:10:52] I think belonging is a great word in that we all want to feel like we belong no matter what the environment is. You said before that coaching is very, very similar. Do people ever come to you for advice or someone who doesn’t have a disability?

Louise Sauvage [00:11:08] To coach someone without a disability? Oh, I don't know how to run. Oh, yeah, but no, I think on a broader spectrum, like I said, coaching is coaching. So where I work, you know, obviously I'm surrounded by another a lot of coaches from different sports and we all learn from each other. And regardless of our sports, regardless of whether it's an able-bodied sport or a sport for athletes with disabilities, it doesn't matter. Coaching is coaching. So I learn lots of things from those coaches and that's how I learn. It doesn't matter whether you're an able-bodied or not, I think that's really relevant. And I've probably learnt a lot from those people and the environment where I where I work more than anything. So, yeah, I think we learn together, you know, from each other. It's great.

Cam Tradell [00:11:55] Do you see that there's that opportunity for people and would there be that opportunity for people to actually come in and coach people with disabilities to improve themselves?

Louise Sauvage [00:12:05] Yeah, absolutely. I think it make you a better coach, like more rounded having to think outside the square, like I said, adaptability. You just learning perhaps you're involved in athletics, but like, it's throwing something, a curveball, which could be, you know, an athlete with a prosthetic leg or an arm. And then you go to coaching a sprinter, but with a difference. And so it does make it I think it's way more interesting and it opens your mind up. And there's not a lot of history that can go back onto a lot of our sports. So you can't go to a book necessarily and look up things. So it makes you think and, you know, some great resources around this country to be able to rely on to help you progress in that way as well. I encourage anyone to come along and experience and get involved and, you know, see what we do and different things. It makes you a better coach. Definitely.

Cam Tradell [00:12:59] I think that's part of the some of the issues that might be here is the barriers to people actually not understanding that and just being fearful of making a mistake. Or what if they slip up? What if they say the wrong thing?

Louise Sauvage [00:13:10] I think people think that a lot. Me personally, I can't speak for all people with disabilities, but I'm definitely of the thing of the you know, I just ask me, you know, no no question is a stupid question. And if it is don't worry I'll probably tell you. But I'm in a nice way. But I think you just ask questions and become involved. You know, you see all the characters that we have, you know, and and how they interact and you know who will welcome you with open arms and yeah. Just come in, ask questions and get involved. Yeah, it's it's a it's a great way to get started and then experience something different.

Cam Tradell [00:13:48] Absolutely. And I think that there's a great opportunity with regards to as you say, it's it can be part of a development phase for people to make them think differently, to help them in whatever path they end up going in their coaching or even in the officiating space where having empathy, understanding setting the environment and then, you know, creating an optimal experience for the people in front of them has to be the ultimate goal for any coach, regardless of who they are coaching or officiating with. Louise, this has been fantastic. A lot to think about, a lot to unpack. And I really appreciate your time with us today.

Louise Sauvage [00:14:24] No worries thank you for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:14:29] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series Lauren Jackson

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I’m the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:32] Today, we're fortunate to be joined by Lauren Jackson, former Australian Opals basketball legend, WNBA/ WNBL player, Naismith Hall of Fame member, Sport Australia Hall of Fame Board Member and who is currently the head of Women's Basketball and Girls Strategy at Basketball Australia. Lauren made her debut for Australia at the Sydney 2000 Olympics and has really done it all in basketball from playing at the elite level in Australia and overseas, to coaching the Albury Bandits women's team. Lauren, welcome to the podcast. I'll jump straight into our first question. So growing up, your mum was one of your coaches and clearly very influential to what happened. Do you remember any other coaches in those years as you were coming through, or even not coaches someone else who sort of set to the side that was influential to you?

Lauren Jackson [00:01:25] You know, I definitely do. There was a guy named Eric Kivi who was a coach from Wollongong. And for me, I really thought his demeanour and his manner in the way that he treated us and he was so respectful and just a really caring guy, you know, I loved him. He was one of my favourite coaches, you know, and I think that, it’s funny because it's sort of the other end of the spectrum. Tom Maher was one of my other favourite coaches of all time, and he was completely the opposite. There was nothing really gentle about him. So I kind of responded to, there was a quality in these coaches and I think it might have been that kindness piece because Tom underneath it all was kind and he wanted the best for his athletes. But Eric, especially as a junior, I think I was probably 14 the first time I played under him, I just remember this really gentleness about him and the way that he spoke and this calmness which I didn't have, like I was not a calm kid, but when other people are calm, that made me feel better. So he and my mum, my mum had that trait as well. Nothing really rattled her ever. And they weren't nasty. They didn't make us do completely outrageous things as youngsters. Like I had coaches having us do 50 push-ups before every training session and like just random stuff. You know, when you kids even at state level, I just I think that there's sort of a really fine line between ensuring that those kids are happy and safe and having fun and also able to perform like at the level you need them to perform at. And that's to me, that's probably the biggest challenge, particularly with state coaches and things like that, you know. So state under 16's and under 18's, like, it's really making sure that those kids are happy and they're enjoying their experience because otherwise they're going to drop out. You know, they won't continue on, which is what unfortunately what happened to alot of my friends.

Cam Tradell [00:03:26] You talked about his kindness and so on. Can you take us to what would one of his sessions look like? So what would the environment be like at one of his sessions? So you talk about him as a person. How did that work in the team environment? How did that sort of manifest itself?

Lauren Jackson [00:03:40] To be truthfully honest? I really don't remember like the on court stuff. I remember levels of accountability. And this is what my mum had as well, was as much as it was an environment where we felt safe, where we felt comfortable and everything like that, there was accountability like you had to, you know, they'll be kind and they'll be everything that you need them to be. But when you step on the basketball court, you go hard and give it everything you've got. And it's funny because my Hall of Fame thing, the other couple of weeks ago, one of my best friends from Albury was over here and she's now an under 14 coach of her daughter. But she was also my team mate when my mum was coaching. So we were watching all of these old basketball games from, you know, like under 12 state championships and Brodie, she said something about mum being tough and it's tough. She was tough. Like she was definitely tough coach. She expected the best from her girls. But as soon as that game was over, there wasn't that real anger. You know, if we lost, it was more about nurturing, like knowing that we felt that loss just as deeply as what the coach did, or as anybody else did. And I think that's it's a really fine line to juggle, because I think a lot of people who haven't played at any level of sport who come into sport, it's not knowing how to deal with those moments, like after a hard loss, or after big win. And you think you're on cloud nine and then you've got to back up two or three hours later at community sport and you get thumped, you know, like it's it's a really fine line to juggle kids. And, yeah, the coaches that I had, particularly in juniors, a lot of them knew how to do that and a lot of them didn't. And the ones that knew how to stuck with me.

Cam Tradell [00:05:26] So you're looking to coach your own kids as they come through. What sort of coach will you be like? We've got this image of what we are and what we want to say. What attributes do you think that you will bring to that community level, knowing that you've played at that very, very highest level for a long time? What are the ways that you will sort of distil that to the community game, do you think?

Lauren Jackson [00:05:44] I think that just giving the kids the opportunity to get out on the court and play their hearts out, but also in an environment where they're not going to get shouted at, they're not they're going to feel safe and feel like they're involved in something bigger than themselves. So, you know, I think that that calmness thing is a really big piece. I think a lot of kids deal with a lot of stuff at home, at school, the basketball court. That environment needs to be a place where they feel safe, where they feel like they can be themselves, where they feel like they've got team-mates who've got their back. They've got friends. There's adults that care about them. And I think that, that's what I want to be able to bring, you know, performance and outcomes is so important. Of course they are, everybody, you know, that otherwise we wouldn't play sport, right? But at that level, when kids are young, it is about ensuring that they're able to develop in an environment that is safe. And that to me, is probably the biggest thing about community basketball. Not to say, I'll have expectations, if we're training hard, you're going to go out there and play hard. But it's first and foremost, they've got to enjoy it. They've got to have fun and they've got to stay in the game. We've got to give them that pathway.

Cam Tradell [00:06:57] I like what you're saying with regards to you create the structure, but off the back of the structure, there's always mistakes. There's always opportunities. There's things for people to then make those instinctive decisions. I kind of like the fact that as well as you drill, there's always a Plan B because it becomes available, because that's what happens, because sports messy.

Lauren Jackson [00:07:14] It really is. Now, that's so true. So I think it's how you, I guess, structure your practises to make sure that you're drilling the the things that you can't control, you know, blocking out, rebounding, shooting, back cuts, setting screens, pick and rolls like you can't anticipate what defence is going to be played, or if they're going to be defensive players at all. You know, you don't know. So I think that it really does come down to the things that you implement in practise. And I guess even just highlighting a few different aspects of the game that you want the kids to work on. And they can do it at home like a lot of this stuff, they can pick up a ball in the backyard, which is how I grew up playing was in my backyard or a little kid down the road here is like out the front dribbling ball every single day. He's got a ball in his hand. And I think if you're doing that, you've got a ball in your hand, you just toss up shots. You naturally just going and rebounding and seeing where the ball's going to fall, you know. So there's a lot of I think just being able to have a ball in your hands and just doing stuff with it, it gives you an idea of what game play is going to be like. And a lot of that just comes from literally just having a ball in your hands.

Cam Tradell [00:08:23] Some of the creativity that comes from kids is remarkable to watch. Did that ever come into play like did you ever, the shots that you were making at the top? Were you ever making those shots as a kid?

Lauren Jackson [00:08:33] Yeah, absolutely. You know, my mum gave me a drill, one drill when I was a kid, you know, and I and she's always said to me, just get your mikan right, mikan, reverse mikan and underneath the basket and to the day I retired, I was doing that every single day before every single game, before every single practise, because it ensured like it ensured that I just got my touch. I just got my rhythm. And it's sometimes that's all it takes is just getting in your rhythm, you know. So I think some of these drills and look, I was so fortunate to have my mum who who had played at that level, and I guess she's got a basketball brain. So I think, you know, I think that stuff comes pretty naturally to us. But I would say that, you know, having to sort of go to drill something that can centre a child before a game, just bring their focus to the basketball game that is critical, you know, and that and it's different for all kids, you know. So it is it is a bit like education. It's literally finding out what the motivation is, how you can centre a kid, how can focus them. It might be one word. For me, it was having the ball in my hand, just doing mikan drill under the ring. So, yeah, it was that's yes, definitely. I had that one drill that one thing in the backyard.

Cam Tradell [00:09:43] I wanted to know if  that move that was you go to, was that your pet play? That's what you went to first?.

Lauren Jackson [00:09:50] No, it wasn't a pet play. It was it was like so if I got a rebound underneath the basket, which happened a lot, right? I just would go up and finish. So it was more of a finishing play. So if you're underneath the basket where I was most of my career, that was what I would go to. And getting that feel for the basketball before a game, it gives you the confidence, I guess, that, your not going to tank it. And then also it was a focus thing, right? It snapped me into gear. Like as soon as I started doing mikan, I knew that, you know, I was about to be either competing and training or in a game. And then as I got older, it just became a flow thing. It was just getting getting into my flow, just refocusing and resetting and also to with my injuries and things like that. Often my body was, you know, not great. And I had to sort of find a way to, I guess, just feel good. And that made me feel good. You know, I think my go to is like a three pointer, like at the end of a clock. But the thing is, they become you go to because you do them so much and drilling is just so important. And learning that routine, especially from a really young age, becomes so important later in your career.

Cam Tradell [00:10:55] You said propping up a three pointer. Is that out of the fact that you wouldn't do it in the middle of a quarter? However, you can do it right at the end on the crux, because if you hit, its gold, if you miss, no one's really expecting you to hit it, if it's right on the buzzer?

Lauren Jackson [00:11:10] Look, I you know, it's same with mikan and I sort of had a bit of a shooting routine and I would shoot, again this was towards the end of my career when I was older. I couldn't do a lot of the five on five training stuff and the pounding so much but I would shoot I get up two hundred, three hundred shots a day and the majority of them were three's or jumpers or, you know, just because that's all I could do. So all I if all I could do physically was shoot, I was going to shoot as much as I could. And it turned out I became a much better shooter when I got a lot older than I was when I was younger. But mum was really incredible when I was younger, because I do remember her saying to me, if you can make it three, you'll go as far as you can in the sport because big people don't shoot outside the paint. That's why I think my career went in the direction it did, was because I had those skills and my mum was the one that encouraged me to learn sort of guard skills as a big. So I was really lucky that I had just her guidance and her support. And look, I fought her every step of the way as a kid. I really did. She'd be like, go out and shoot you shots and then say, no, no way, get off my back. Don't talk to me about basketball like I was a hard kid to to be around. But some of the lessons that she gave me have stuck with me for the rest of my life.

Cam Tradell [00:12:28] Do you remember your coaches or what they encouraged you or how they encouraged you when you're growing up on those moves, you are a finisher, you get the ball, your job is to get that ball in that hole any way that you can. Do you remember the trial and error around working out the different ways of doing that?

Lauren Jackson [00:12:45] Honestly, I was missing out on basketball teams up until I was 13 years old. And then at 13, I got picked on Australian Junior Camp. I turned 14 at the camp and then I was on the pathway. I was within a year or two, I was in the national squad, but up until thirteen I was missing out on, I missed out on a Riverina team, you know, like that. It didn't come naturally that finishing off. And I did overthink things and I was anxious about everything, but it was the way that I dealt with that. And I played a lot better with my mother as coach because I felt safe underneath her. She was someone, even though she was tough, she brought out the best in me. So I would say that it does take time. And that's why with kids, you can't be hard on them because this is where they develop. This is where they get to that point where, you know, when they become thirteen or fourteen or fifteen, things start to click in. If they've been doing the work, regardless of whether they're making the plays at the end of the game, making teams or whatever, if they've been doing the work, this is when that stuff starts to really, you see it happen, you see it evolve.

Cam Tradell [00:13:46] So even in maturation, if you're looking at the maturation rights of kids as they come through systems or they come through just the normal growth spurt, those ones that have got those micro skills as they get into maturation, when everyone else catches up, they tend to be the ones that thrive because they're not reliant on their speed, their power from a young age where they dominate, therefore they don't need those micro skills. And then when they get there, they can then thrive because they've got now the size, the speed, the power or just the physical capability, along with those micro skills as well, which really help the game.

Lauren Jackson [00:14:20] Like I wasn't even the tallest on our team here in Albury up until I was probably twelve, I reckon. I had team-mates who now come up to my below my boob, you know, and they were taller than me when we were ten, eleven, you know. So it's kids they mature differently. So being able to give them a more complete skill set from a young age and having them do all the different things, not sort of putting them into a box is really helpful.

Cam Tradell [00:14:47] Thank you so much for sharing some incredible insights with us today. Lauren, really appreciate the insight into creating a positive, safe, learning environment for participants at the entry level and what it can mean to not just high performance sport, but also how it can help grow people through their lives has been incredible. Thanks very much.

Narrator [00:15:11] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series Bobbi and Mel_final.mp3

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cameron Tradell [00:00:07] Hello, and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell, and I am the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cameron Tradell [00:00:34] Today, I'm pleased to be joined by two individuals with a truly unique story to tell. Mel Perrine, who is a B2 classified, visually impaired para-alpine snow sport athlete, and Bobbi Kelly, who has been Mel's site guide since 2019 and a coach at her local club in Perisher. Mel and Bobbi have a great partnership that saw Mel win a gold and silver medal at the women's super-combined, visually impaired 2019 World Para Alpine Skiing Championships. Both are hoping Mel will make it to a fourth Winter Paralympic Games in Beijing in 2022. Mel and Bobbi welcome and thanks for joining us. I want to take you back to the beginning, Mel, I'm really keen to know where did it all start? Where did your love for racing come from and who got you in, who got you hooked and what were your motivations?

Mel Perrine [00:01:30] I guess my love of racing originally came from a development ski camp that I went on after I finished high school. I didn't want to go into uni straight away, and I just wanted to learn more about skiing. I think at that point in time, I was just a recreational athlete, so I went over to Canada for two months and I had a development coach over there who basically showed me the ropes in ski racing, gave me a bunch of technical and tactical information, and I just fell in love with the highly competitive nature of it. I've always been an athlete and it was just something that felt super natural to me. I love speed, I love competition and skiing and always been a massive part of my life all through my teen years. And this was just it was like an avenue to a way that I could continue exploring that. And I just loved it from the first from the first time I was in a racecourse, it was just awesome. I loved every second of it came back to Australia, eventually I went away to uni and then I think in 2009, after another year at the development camp, the same one, I was put in touch with the Australian head coach. He watched me ski and then invited me to join the national team.

Cameron Tradell [00:02:45] Do you remember the environment, do you remember what traits those coaches had back on the day, how they created the right environment for you?

Mel Perrine [00:02:52] I think the great thing about that development camp was it was everybody was a development athlete. So, the information about ski racing and about technical ability and what we needed to work on from ski tuning, boot, like everything was spoon fed to us in a really clear and direct way. Like we knew exactly what was going on, and also the coach was super supportive of our journeys and that the fact that some of us didn't know as much as each other and he was so approachable and really open to that sort of level of communication and then moving into the national team, that early coaching was a little bit different, but it was still recognised that I was a young athlete and so things were kind of given to me at kind of a little bit of a different level than a lot of the other athletes. But again, it was a massive supportive environment from the coaches that were really pushing me to learn that because they actually cared about my development as an athlete and the fact that they wanted to be to be safe and perform really well on a ski hill. And I think that really helped me stay in the sport as a young athlete.

Cameron Tradell [00:03:59] You've got a unique relationship, especially with Bobbi, who joins us as well. And Bobbi, you're a coach in your own right. You work as the guide for Mel on the slopes and in performance. How did you get into this role? What was your entry into being drawn to play in this role?

Bobbi Kelly [00:04:18] I grew up skiing in Perisher, so both my parents worked for the ski resort that allowed me and my siblings to grow up skiing and having fun along the mountain. That led me to start ski racing myself. I competed till I was around 19/20, and because I love the sport so much, I just started coaching and just at a local club and a good friend of mine, Christian Geiger, who was Mel's old guide and coach for the team, asked me a couple times to guide Mel. However, I wasn't really...  It wasn't the right timing for me because I was focusing so much on my coaching. But after the Pyeongchang Games, I decided it was a good time for me to start skiing with Mel and I've been skiing with Mel and coaching part time ever since.

Cameron Tradell [00:05:08] The relationship that you've got in the way that you compete together is quite unique. You seem in sync. You seem very, very connected. Your communication is incredible, and I guess it's got to be knowing the nature of the sport. I'm keen to understand potentially, Mel, where did that start from? How did you start to build the relationship with Bobbi so that you could start to get so in tune with each other and understand how best to work together?

Mel Perrine [00:05:34] I think Bobbi and I really got along quite well right from the start, actually.  Bobs was a little bit nervous the first time we met, the first time she skated in front of me to the point where I think I was back in in ski school as a 13-year-old. I know we quickly... it was really, it was a very open conversation, very quickly about what I could and couldn't do. And I think that it's kind of set the tone for our entire ski partnership where we're both incredibly open. We're both incredibly honest with each other all the time. And just outside of skiing, like, we found out pretty quickly that we were, you know, we're on the same wavelength with a lot of things, but I think our core values are very similar. So, we laugh a lot together. We have a lot of fun together off the mountain. You know, we're always chatting even when it's not ski season. So, I think the fact that we get on and that we share those core values and we set the tone right from the start that like open communication was going to be our thing. That pretty much kick started an awesome partnership, and we've just built on that the longer we spent together.

Cameron Tradell [00:06:45] Bobbi, from your perspective, the role that you play is guide. But is there much coaching that goes on between the two of you on how you can both work together? So, what's the feedback mechanism that you give to each other to optimise what you're doing? So, you can both play the role that you're playing so you can be as fast as you can in competition?

Bobbi Kelly [00:07:03] So obviously, we have the coach’s feedback, however we do talk a lot, obviously all the time to each other, we're always giving each other feedback, always learning off each other. Yeah, it's just constant chatting between each other, talking, trying to figure out things ourselves a lot of the time. Like, obviously, the coaches can't hear what we're saying all the time. So, it's just that constant feedback; trying what works and what doesn't work. And, we just started journaling, sometimes writing what works for us and what doesn't. So, we just keep it as consistent as possible.

Cameron Tradell [00:07:38] When you talk about the coaches that come over the top, you've got these problems that you're trying to solve and the problem can be, we want to learn how to communicate better, we want to learn and how we can get our technique in sync around certain areas. What are some of the safe environments that you create with other coaches to then problem solve with you? What does that look like and who tends to facilitate that?

Bobbi Kelly [00:08:01] I think it's a bit of both. We're very lucky and fortunate in the way in the sense that we have a very good relationship with our coaches where we're both very open with each other and sometimes the coaches will bring something up that we need to work on. Or sometimes it's the other way around, and we're happy to sometimes say, "Oh no we think differently”, and sometimes they may say the same. It's a lot of problem-solving like Mel said and it does come from not just the coaches and us. It can sometimes come from the athlete. We have family video sessions where we sit with the whole team, and we discuss each other's skiing and brainstorm together. So, it's a very like we're all learning together. We're trying to figure out something together, more so than just one side.

Cameron Tradell [00:08:47] How does that work for you, Mel? When you've got these people, all problem solving together with you and then you're optimising, is there a feedback loop when you do come up with a plan and then you go back to the group to say, we try these five things that we sort of agreed on didn't quite work for us, or these three things worked really well. Can you think of an example where that's come to life for you?

Mel Perrine [00:09:10] A lot of our problem solving is done not only in that the athlete-to-athlete kind of communications space, but also the athlete to coach communications space and a lot of the feedback loop that you just described in terms of communicating back as to what worked and what didn't, I think, happens differently for both of those groups. So, with our coaches, it's more of a formal after every run or after every two to three runs. But it's like, "listen, we try that stuff that we talked about in video, this worked and that didn't work". And then we also discuss the language that we use as well. So, you know, a coach might give a cue to me about a certain body position or what like what in skiing. A specific example was he wanted me to like round my shoulders out a bit more rather than opening up my chest constantly. And to me, that didn't make sense in my body. So, I was just like, OK, well, I think of it like this, and for me it’s like pulling like pulling my diaphragm up, which kind of creates a bit more tension through my core, and that's just how it made sense to my brain. And now the communication loop is he uses the same language that I communicated to him that he gives back to me to make sure that we're always on the same page with our language, which makes a really consistent level kind of communication board. And that's just like one specific example, but that applies in a lot of our conversations, whether it's tactical or technical, like our coaches are always interested in the language that Bobbi and I use when we talk to each other so that they can communicate. They can give us instruction that makes sense in that space that we've already created, so we tell them what works in our partnership and then they try and communicate on the same level. So that's a very formal and then informal, it's more informal with other athletes, other athletes who are just like, oh yeah, that thing worked really cool might work really well. Or, you know, we try that. And gosh, that run was totally crappy sort of thing. So that's a little bit less formal, but we can all see what everyone's working on, and it's the athletes because they're outside that super level communication kind of field that the coaches and us maintain they can sometimes see or throw a different word in or throw a different perspective in that changes the perceptive for everyone, which can, you know, help us overcome plateaus.

Cameron Tradell [00:11:37] The coach’s ability to adapt the way they communicate is key to this clearly, because you both are obviously very clear on what you communicate and how you communicate. I'm interested in Bobbi as the guy you're going down the hill. These are starting to go wrong. What happens in your mind with regards to something's? Not quite there? How do you maintain your level of clear communication? Because that's key, right? What are the processes you go through to maintain your, your head and mind space?

Bobbi Kelly [00:12:07] Describing guiding to people? It's almost like you're juggling a ball and then people are throwing all these questions. One person's asking you a mathematical question, one person's asking you a science question, and you have to keep juggling the balls as perfectly as possible, and you have to just stay focused and still do the job at hand. So, I originally was very overwhelmed by this because Mel's this amazing athlete who have so much respect for, I never really wanted to let her down or screw up. However, I think over this period of skiing with Mel, we figured out what works best for us as a team. And that's something that just, I guess, has come with time. Every guide and athlete will work differently. That's part of a journey as a team. I tend to take on information and I guess even say information a lot more simply than what Mel does. Mel takes on a lot of information, and she can describe things very elegantly, and I'm just really basic. So, I guess something that's really worked for us is Mel does a lot, she counts and she relays information when we inspect and then when we run to the courses and I kind of say, what's happening in front of me and kind of react to things very clear and as simply as possible, really. And that's something that I guess I've had to work on as well, for Mel, her senses are quite heightened. So that means when I speak, I have to try and keep the same tone. I don't want to raise my voice too loud if something's about like something that's happened, that was unexpected. I try and just keep my cool and just try and focus on the task at hand and say it as simply as possible. There's no real time to muck around, really, so I just try and stay focused.

Cameron Tradell [00:14:11] It's a unique skill in its own because you're also skiing yourself and you're giving that guide and then you've got, as you say, an incredible athlete in Mel who not much she can't do on the slopes. So, I'm interested in that in the do you do coaching independently of each other, like when you go and work on different things? And what does that look like? What would you work on Mel away from Bobbi? What are some of the things that you would do with other coaches without Bobbi being there? And part two of that is what's it like when you then come back together, and you've got some slightly new nuances or you got some differences? How do you integrate that into what you do?

Mel Perrine [00:14:49] So I think the fun thing is with being visually impaired is I could never go away from Bobbi. I need her. But we have started to figure out a way that we can actually do that because sometimes you just can't focus on your own skiing if you've got either someone in front of you or someone behind you. So, we do this thing when we're struggling with new drills or a concept that we're just not clicking into, we do this thing called leapfrogging. So sometimes I'll stay in one spot and Bobbi will ski away until the end of our comms system range. And then but then she’ll give me information about the slope in front of me and where she's going and point me exactly where the fall line is. And because she's giving me that information, I can then ski towards her with her guiding me vocally but not having her in front of me. And that will then allow me to work on whatever I'm working on and Bobbi to work whatever she's working on without having to worry about each other. But that's about as far away from each other as we ever get.

Cameron Tradell [00:15:46] Bobbi, if you're working on a new skill or you're working on things that are going to enhance you from a guide perspective. Do you do everything with Mel when you're trying out new things, or do you practise some things externally and then try and optimise?

Bobbi Kelly [00:15:59] I'm fortunate enough that I work at a ski resort, I'm always on the snow. I like I live on the snow, so I'm constantly testing out new things and skiing is whenever I can. I am lucky I do go out and just work on things when I can. However, if it's a training day and I just I need to work on something, and I’m not getting it, I sometimes I just have to go "Mel I'm sorry, can you just like, have a break? And I just need to figure it out these skis.  I just need a couple of runs just to get going or something” it’s definitely not, I'm not as young as what I used to be, and I just need a few runs to get me sorted

Cameron Tradell [00:16:39] As you move forward. What's the next piece for you? How do you keep striving to be better? Do you put plans in place, like you said about the process to getting better and optimising what you do? Or is it about "we just set our sights on a tournament to win or something to win"? Or have you got really clear goals on what it takes to be better?

Mel Perrine [00:16:59] I think the one thing that's really held true across my entire career is that the process has always been more important to me, and I'm so lucky that Bobbi also thinks that same sort of way. So, I strive to be the absolute best, most competent, most technically efficient skier that I can be, and I do as much as I possibly can, both on snow and off snow to just be a better skier. And I think my first guide... it was my first guide, Andrew said. He's like, you focus on the process and the results will take care of themselves. It's the process that matters. So, we've got all these big massive competitions coming up, but I'm super excited to get over to the northern hemisphere and train because I think by training, I'm going to get to, Bobbi and I are going to be a better partnership where I'm going to be a better skier. And that's just going to lead to a whole bunch of fun and some cool results like, that's what really matters to me.

Cameron Tradell [00:17:58] Bobbi, is it fair to say fun is the core of everything you're doing? Yes, competition winning is important, but realistically, it sounds like fun is a core component of this.

Bobbi Kelly [00:18:06] Absolutely. I honestly couldn't think of anything better. I'm skiing with my best friend in the mountains. You know, like every day is just so much fun. And I think Mel hit the nail on the head there with the process I think that's probably one of the things we're best at in terms of our communication. I would say they're really good at just trusting the process, and I know that sounds really lame when you hear it all the time, but we just focus on one run and then two runs. I'm just exactly like day one of training. That's all I'm thinking about, leading to the next to the northern hemisphere and just being extraordinary at the ordinary. I think we're both really good at doing this, chatting through it.

Cameron Tradell [00:18:51] I think that's key and core to everyone is the fact that having fun is really important. Understanding the process and the results will come. I think that that is a great philosophy to, to sort of hang true to. How important is it for you to maintain and keep the same communication that you've had that's got you to where you are today?

Mel Perrine [00:19:10] I think we feel such a great foundation that I don't want to change our communication style. I trust Bobbi with my life and to change any part of that, that relationship would be to, you know, undermine that trust. Bobs has ever since we started getting together, she's been awesome at just trying to make sure not only that I'm always safe, but they were always striving for a high level of performance. And I think both those things matter equally to me. So, I said, I don't really want to change our communication style, because it would change the trust level, and I already trust her with absolutely everything.

Cameron Tradell [00:19:48] Mel and Bobbi thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us this afternoon. Incredible insight and a lot to take away for coaches and athletes alike with regards to keeping open communication lines there for people to understand, to learn and to grow together. Thanks again. Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Traddell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Shane Pill

Coaching and Officiating podcast series Ben Sutton

Introduction Voice Over [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I’m the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today, I'm pleased to be joined by Ben Sutton, a football coach and former Pararoos player who played at the 2019 World Cup in Spain. Ben heads up the Paraoos Development Centre, which provides football development training to children and adults with cerebral palsy and acquired brain injuries. Ben has a passion for change and equality, and he got into coaching to create opportunities for children with cerebral palsy to play football. Ben, very pleased to speak with you, thanks for joining us.

Benny Sutton [00:01:04] Thank you very much.

Cam Tradell [00:01:06] Benny, I'm really interested in your journey. You've obviously done quite a lot in the game and played a lot of roles. I'm really interested in where did you start? What was your first experience in playing and who was really that person that supported you or gave you the love for the game?

Benny Sutton [00:01:23] I started when I was like four so that's when I decided to do it. And then the person who gave me the love for the game, was probably my father, because he was my first ever coach, and I remember one of the first ever memories that I have of playing, is of me in goal, then I got hit in the face with the ball. I saved it, but the ref and my dad counted that as a goal, and I was like, Oh no. But for all and all that's really helped with my cerebral palsy and, it kind of helped with all my balance and doing stuff that I... without even knowing, just going, and helping like balance there's movement, there's, like, also playing. It made me relationships I would've never had.

Cam Tradell [00:02:19] Yeah, that's interesting, so you found that as you were playing more and more, that the sport was actually helping you grow other, you know, physical attributes that you wouldn't have otherwise had?

Benny Sutton [00:02:31] Yep!

Cam Tradell [00:02:31] Yeah, that's great. And you're talking about the social, can you tell me a little bit about that. How does the social, do you remember early social interactions in sport?

Benny Sutton [00:02:39] My whole under-6s and under 7s teams were my school friends. And when we were in Under 6s, we lost every single game, except for one... And in under 7s, somehow, with that same team, we were undefeated a whole entire year, and I don't know how that happened, but it happened. And then we were in...., I was like 12, when I came into the Cerebral Palsy program and that changed my life forever, because when I brought that up until I went into Cerebral Palsy Alliance until I was about 7, and then I didn't really have that cerebral palsy, contacts centre or any friends, with the severity, so I couldn't really connect with anyone. So, but when I got there, it changed my whole life. I got to meet people from all parts - teachers, people in finance, people my age, so we got to talk about everything and now some of them are my team mates now. Most of them are my role models, even now being an older one in the program now, even the younger ones are my role models, and I think that if I can help you and that makes me so much better.

Cam Tradell [00:04:14] That's a great insight to the way that sports really embedded not just connections and friendships, but how to help support and grow people. And I'm wondering, you said your father was your first coach. Do you remember what made him a good coach for you?

Benny Sutton [00:04:29] He was patient. He didn't care if we did well, he was like even if you did a mistake he did not care. He knew that every time we were going to do something, we would get better and not to get frustrated. That's one of the main things, is I see coaches nowadays get so frustrated at kids going, "Oh my god, why can't you do this?" But I learnt from my dad and my mum that to be patient, and that they will get this eventually, it will take time, everything takes time and practice. If they want to get better, they will practice, so yeah.

Cam Tradell [00:05:14] So it's about creating that positive environment?

Benny Sutton [00:05:17] On field, I’m a very negative person, like to myself, I think I should be at this level at the highest level possible, and I should not make mistakes, because I'm representing my country and I should not do it, but that is the one mindset to have. But as a coach, I am the complete opposite. I'm going everything's fine, everything's positive... "Let's go", "let's do it again, don't be like me, be the best you can be".

Cam Tradell [00:05:51] I love that, Benny. And is it true, Benny, that your very first team you were involved in was more interested in holding hands than actually playing the sport?

Benny Sutton [00:05:59] Yes. So, my under six team we weren't really the best at football. We were more just all school friends, but we were all holding hands and that's where the patience from my dad, I applaud him for that. I would have been, what are you doing? why are you doing this? But he was like, Nah. But then he realised that, so he didn't put us together. Even so, we couldn’t hold hands. And I think that's where, when I went to Under 7s, that's why we did so well. I was patient and then we just went. We actually started to enjoy the team and went down, and we went home with our friends, like our closest friends, that we were holding hands with the year before you before we went "OK let's play now.”.

Cam Tradell [00:06:55] Clearly, that was a really positive experience for you because you stayed in the sport ever since. And you then have started to make representative teams. Can you tell us about when you first made the representative teams and what was the atmosphere? What was it like with your new coaches where you're coming into performance coaching? What was that like?

Benny Sutton [00:07:13] It was very interesting because I actually never had a proper, proper coach until I went into the reps’ teams. So, I always had my dad or schoolteacher or science teacher or whoever it was that was like, OK, let's do this. So, when I hit 12, I went into the New South Wales Cerebral Palsy program, but I didn't actually make the team until I was 17, so in 2010, where we went to Melbourne for the National Championship. And that's where the spirit of that helped me so much like just learning off. I had been with NSW players for five years, so I already knew them. But meeting the Victorians, the Western Australians, the South Australians, and everyone else turned out okay. That's where I need to be. And but the experience they gave me it wasn't all about football. It was about being a good person and like Football's a team sport. So how can I, how can I get from a team sport even into my work? How can I be a better person here and my work, and be a team player? And then in 2017... and in 2016, I got the call up for the national team and that's a whole different level. I thought NSW's camps were hard, and it went up a notch. So, in January 2017, I trained my butt off for like four weeks, and just went into the February camp and I was like "Oh my God!" "ok", apparently, I did well, which wasn't too bad, and then funnily enough, I got my first call up that year and I cried all the way home and then I told all my family. Mum actually organised a party without me knowing, like, at my house that even if I got dropped, she was like oh, everyone, I was like OK, so I went to that actually had 11 people from my family fly over to Argentina to watch me actually play. Which in CP Football we don't get many people. Now we're starting too, but in that time, that was unheard of. And like all the coaching staff loved it. I was like "oh my God, this is awesome" And then, yeah, but the levels of coaches now I have, so much better. So, we are allowed to go into Northwest Spirit, and we've been training with them for about three to four years. And having training with the Imperial Under 6 team and while all round helped us so much because we got faster and strong. And we have to react to it, and we thought that after I get behind them. So, we have to now even train harder.

Cam Tradell [00:11:00] So who were you playing for in Argentina the first time, and then who did you play against?

Benny Sutton [00:11:06] So we went to Argentina, we were playing for the Pararoos We played against the US, Ukraine, Portugal, Japan, Argentina, funny enough, and ... Northern Ireland.

Cam Tradell [00:11:29] Right! That's an incredible experience.

Benny Sutton [00:11:33] I would have never had gone to South America if it weren't for football.

Cam Tradell [00:11:37] Incredible. I also want to touch back on something you said before, and I think this is key and it's the impact that a coach can make if they make it more than about sport. I like what you said is that it wasn't just being about a good sportsperson, it's about being a good person. Can you tell me a little bit about what that means? What sort of things did you do to identify what you could do to be a better person?

Benny Sutton [00:12:01] I know its cliché, but it's treat the way you want to be treated. So, it was like, "OK if I say this to someone, do I want them to say it to me?" No. And how do I get the best out of my skill set to help the team, so at North Sydney, where I used to work, I basically went, OK, I'm very, I hate the shed being untidy and that was me. I was like OK, my job there, ok let's clean the shed. So maybe once every three weeks, I was like OK, this is my job, I can help the team if I can make someone's life a bit easier, I’ll do it. and that's where I kind of went, OK, like, I've done two and a half hours on Sunday, right? Anyway, clean the whole entire shed and then that make's someone else’s life better, and my life easier as well, so I can go bang, bang, bang, so everything works. And then someone else would do that for me and then we all do it for each other. And that the connection that I found at North Sydney, I always only ever had one job. Now I have two. But, at North Sydney, the culture there was so good, we all helped each other, and that's why we were all still so close with each other. Even if someone left, we would still contact them and invite them to everything that we would do.

Cam Tradell [00:13:46] That's a fantastic culture and I must admit, I've lived a little bit of it, and I'm interested in your coaching now, and I love the fact you say that you're a different coach than you are a player. I really like that is the fact that you are hard on yourself, but you want to create those positive environments for the for the new breed coming through. Can you tell us a little bit about what excites you about coaching the new breed? Who are they? What do you do for them?

Benny Sutton [00:14:12] So the new breed, I've actually tried to develop the Pararoos Development Centre, where basically the next generation to come through and take my spot and take all the spots of the current national team. But to have, basically because I didn't have that opportunity when I was younger and I was like, I want that. I want what I had, and I wanted to give it to them. And it’s all about, can I not Impact, but can I change something in them, to make them love to the sport? If I can make... it’s all about loving something, if you love something, you will continue to do it until you are 75 or however how old you are. But yeah, but as you know at North Sydney, we have a guy who's 75 and still playing because he loved the sport. I want that, I want to try and make them, the Under 10s go up and be him and play at 75. I want them playing some of the teams and they can play with me. But yeah, it’s all about just making sure one: They don't quit the sport or if they do, how can I help outside of that as well? How can I make sure that next time I don't make a mistake? For me, it's not everything, but it also impacts me. The way I make sure I've done my job correctly is at trials the next year, if everyone wants to come back then I’ve done my job. If one person doesn’t, I haven't done my job correctly.

Cam Tradell [00:16:14] Geez, you are hard on yourself, Benny.

Benny Sutton [00:16:16] I am. But you always have to be positive no matter what happens, even if they do the worst mistake of their life, put a positive spin on it. If they pass it across goal, and the other team intercepts and scores, then, that's fine. I'd say OK "what can you do different?" how can you do it differently? And then the next time, if they keep doing it, then you go OK, how can we do it differently? And then they'll think, they'll go "Oh I can play on the Goalkeeper, or I can play someone else" and you go, OK,

Cam Tradell [00:16:59] As long as they're learning, I guess, Benny, is that if the mistake is a learning opportunity, then it's not a lost opportunity. It sounds key and quarter to everything you do. The enjoyment factor must be high, too, like if you're putting the benchmark of everyone that's here this year needs to be here next year. You must really drive fun and engagement as being key drivers of your sessions.

Benny Sutton [00:17:22] Yeah. And like what I learnt from everyone I talked with and coached against and even played under was, it is all about fun. If it’s like I found that especially with my under 9 girls this year that I found the one game that they all loved - it was bullrush, they all loved bullrush, and I like perfect. I found a game, that I was like, if you do well lets go do bull rush then, and I'll tease it for like five minutes, and then they will all remember, they'd go "Ben, let’s play bull rush, let's play bull rush" and then I'm like OK play bull rush for five minutes, changes the whole day, and then they all switch on and focus and I can just go once I visit.

Cam Tradell [00:18:15] It's interesting because you've got a unique skill there where you're actually playing to their motivations, in your coaching, to the motivations of the athletes or the participants in your team to ensure that they're not just learning how to play the sport, they're not just learning how to be part of a team, they're also learning that they've got some say over what happens in your session. And I think that's great that buy in that you get is that a sort of strategy of yours?

Benny Sutton [00:18:43] Yes. Master strategy of mine. Because I find that one, even when you learn to play, everyone wanted too, and if I could, I would just want to play games the whole time. But as a player, I would be like "Can we play? because that was so much fun. And then now as a coach I can go, "OK let’s play", but then I can add some rules into it so it's kind of like you're learning more about learning and all of that cognitive learning and going, OK, can I have fun? But also, oh, okay, I'm doing this well, and then you point out what we did well, and then you point out that one thing that they didn't do well and then we go from there.

Cam Tradell [00:19:30] So creating constraints on, on what you what you're providing to people in a fun way, highlighting all the positives. And then let's work on the one thing that you want to get better at. Is that planned before the session? Or do you wait to see what's in front of you and then make decisions as you're coaching, which is real coaching right?

Benny Sutton [00:19:53] A bit of both. I try to plan what I'm going to do, but if that doesn't work, you always have to adapt. Even like the size of a session, if it’s too big and it’s too easy for them, you have to make it smaller but even if anything doesn't work, you cut them into a team and go Okay, I'll just change the roles off the top of my head and then that would be that.

Cam Tradell [00:20:22] Your adaptability there, I like that is the fact that you create the constraint based on what you're seeing, but you wait to see what you see from your players and what they can do, what they can't do and what they need to do. And then you adapt your session to get the best outcome from the players. And then you add in another layer, if we get all this work done, we can also play the game you want to play.

Benny Sutton [00:20:46] Yeah, but it also, everyone has different situations as well. Like I might have a bad day at work. And then I go to training and sometimes I don't want to be there. But it’s the same with kids, they might have a bad day at school, something might have happened at school. Something might have happened at home that we might not know about. And then you find out, and then you go "OK, let's make it more fun, let's make it more fun now, let’s make it easier," and they go OK, cool. And then if you have more than one session, you can go OK, let’s make that day harder. Let's make this one more fun.

Cam Tradell [00:21:30] Benny, I really like that because one that's how you intrinsically motivate people to love sport is that it becomes what it's designed to do. And that is, yes, be competitive. But two, fun to turn up and engage in, we've grabbed a lot to learn from you today Benny, that was fantastic. Really appreciate you joining us this afternoon. It's an incredible insight for us all to take away. Thanks so much for your time mate.

Benny Sutton [00:21:56] Thank you very much for having me.

Cam Tradell [00:22:00] Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series Greg Chappell

Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series. We will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. We'd like to welcome Greg Chappell to be with us today, Greg provides a multifaceted view of sport. Having been a player at the international level, he worked as a selector for the National and Queensland teams, a member of the Australian Cricket Board, a coach. He's worked as a full time commentator. And he was also with the Indian Cricket team for two years as he filled in as the national coach. Welcome, Greg. Thanks very much for joining us.

Greg Chappell [00:01:00] Thanks, Cam. Nice to be with you.

Cam Tradell [00:01:01] Greg, you've had a lot of experience with regards to what coaching has looked like from the coach's point of view, but also from the players perspective and over the time, what have you seen in reflecting on all that, that the key attributes of of good coaching look like from your perspective?

Greg Chappell [00:01:18] Yeah, it's a very interesting question, because I obviously grew up in an era where there wasn't a great deal of organised coaching. We were lucky that my two brothers and I were lucky that our father was a very keen cricketer and keen sportsman generally, and he encouraged us to play sport. Cricket was always his favourite sport, so that was the dominant sport for us. But luckily, the way he introduced us to the game was very clever. There was a lot of intuitive stuff there. He understood the game very well and he understood coaching better than I think I realised at the time. The three of us all finished up playing for Australia. We all had very different styles and that was because Dad's early introduction was about what he wanted us to do, not how to do it. So he allowed us to develop our own style, and I think that was a very important part of it. The other really important point that I reflect on now, I didn't realise it at the time, but he encouraged us whenever we played cricket in the backyard or with our friends or down the beach or wherever it was, it was always to be played seriously. He wanted us to play with the hard ball from an early age, but he didn't give us any pads and gloves to play with. So the message behind it was always, if you learn to use the bat properly, you won't need pads and gloves. So it was a bit of tough love, if you like. There were a few wraps on the leg and a few wraps on the fingers. But we learnt that if I did miss it with the bat, then it wasn't going to hurt us. So that was important. It also made us watch the ball. He also had a family friend or friend of his who did some sort of organised coaching on a Sunday morning near, well not far from our home and so any of the kids in the neighbourhood or anywhere in Adelaide, for that matter, I mean, I remember kids catching the tram down from the eastern suburbs of Adelaide. We lived in Glenelg and come down to Glenelg and walk down to Mr Fuller's place where he had a couple of nets in his backyard and he would throw balls to the kids and basically teach the defensive aspects of the game. But the part of it that I remember most was that when Mr Fuller was finished with us, Dad would take us into the next net and he would throw balls to us randomly, but full tosses, long hops, half volleys and he taught us to score runs. He encouraged us to look to be scoring runs. And I'm forever grateful that I grew up in that environment because it really did influence my my thinking and my style from a very early age. Then when we got to the elite cricket levels, they were no team coaches, they were no club coaches. They were people who organise practise by the clock, know how long you batted balls and who batted. But no one was giving a great deal of instruction, most of the instruction or most of the learning came peer-to-peer. You know, we would talk amongst ourselves, we would watch what the other guys were doing and watch particularly what the better players were doing and the beauty of the game being a very much an amateur game in those days was that training was only twice a week. You came from work because everyone had a job and you were keen to get there. So there was a lot of energy and a lot of enthusiasm. But also you had the odd test player. You had a few shield players who were interspersed around your training sessions. So you got to look at good players up close. And that's where the learning came from. And I'm just so grateful that with the environment in which I grew up.

Cam Tradell [00:05:19] Those communities of practise in that peer to peer learning. And it's something that is so powerful with regards to, you know, your peers understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are because they see you so often and play against you so often. And I guess that's the piece where a coach can play a crucial role in creating those environments now, learning from all those experiences from the past.

Greg Chappell [00:05:41] Yeah look, I think the other important part of it was that they were also batting, bowling against the same players. The lessons that you were getting were pertinent to that moment. It wasn't just somebody's experience from a day gone by or some somewhere else. It's much harder being a coach, having sort of gone from being a player and got involved in coaching. The games obviously evolved from very much a pastime in the first half of my career, it was a pastime. We had a job and we played Cricket on weekends and, you know, a few in between. You know if you got the Sheffield Shield level or Test cricket, obviously you went further than that, but it was very much a pastime. Then we went through the revolution of World Series Cricket and came out the other side and it was semi-professional. So it was starting to evolve into that professional game. And more coaches came into being. Bob Simpson was the first coach that was introduced to an Australian team. And that sort of came from the pressure that evolved as the game evolved into the semi-professional stage, there was more responsibility, more pressure on the team captain, when you talk about an Australian team. So the decision was taken that a lot of that responsibility had to be taken off the captain. So team managers, team coaches, media advisers and all those sort of people started to come into being and and Bob Simpson was the first one as an Australian coach, and he came at a time when we had a young team and he did a lot of drilling. He did a lot of work ethic sort of stuff, really got the guys working a lot harder. And that was with a change that started to take the emphasis away from the peer to peer stuff and put an individual in charge of the learning. And I'm not sure that that's necessarily the ideal situation, no doubt that peer to peer stuff still goes on. But all of a sudden we had an individual and it doesn't matter who that individual is or was. All of a sudden, somebody became responsible for the information. The holder of the information, if you like, all the wisdom, and I think  the wheel got sort of turned on the side a little bit at that point. There's some good aspects of that, but I think there are some lesser, less good aspects of it and we can go into that as we as we talk.

Cam Tradell [00:08:26] It's interesting because if we take that down to the next level and you talk about what's happening at the top and often community reflects what happens at the top, what would good community coaching look like? What would those environments look like at the community level? How would you see that optimising the coaches role in the community?

Greg Chappell [00:08:46] Yeah, it's such an important one. And this is it wasn't so much what happened at the elite level, that sort of took things off-kilter, in my view, it was what happened at that community level and the club level is all of a sudden we decided we needed more coaches. And so the coach education came into being and then that grew very quickly. And there were some good aspects of that. But the emphasis of coaching became around technique. And from a batting point of view, it became about not getting out and from a bowling point of view, it became about not going for runs. And that's the wrong aspect, in my view, in the beauty of the education that I got, it was about scoring runs and taking wickets. And you learnt everything from that aspect, but I think what's happened over the last 40 years or so is that as we've got more coaches at that community level, I mean, we had our training sessions, were twice a week and they were generally in nets because that was the only efficient way you could get a group of however many people through a training session reasonably quickly and efficiently. But they were top-up sessions. A lot of what we learnt, particularly as kids and in the formative years, was from our backyard cricket, our cricket down the park or the beach, which was totally run by the kids themselves. We had no adults, we had no coaches, no umpires. We umpired our games. We argued amongst ourselves. We decided what the rules were. We decided depending on the location in the backyard, obviously it was a much tighter environment. So you had automatic wicketkeepers and the trees were out and the house was out or whatever. And then down at the park, you maybe had a few more kids. So you had a few extra fielders, but you still have some trees that were part of the fielding team and so on. So you were learning in an environment that was very close to the game. You were making decisions in real-time so that the development of the individual wasn't just about the technical aspects, it was about the mental aspects and the decision making. And what we know from history is that the best players are the best decision makers. They are the ones that are picking up most information and using it more efficiently and effectively than than the rest. It's not technically driven. I mean, if you want a good current example, you wouldn't necessarily coach someone to bat like Steve Smith from a technical point of view. But he knows how to make runs. You know, he he's learnt to to bat in an environment that was about run scoring. And so what I believe we need to be doing at the community level is teaching people the whole game. So creating environments that match the games. Cricket, possibly golf is the other sport that train in one environment and play in another. You know, we don't play in nets, we play in a field that's got spaces and the art of batting and the best batsmen have been the ones who've been able to hit the ball where the fielders aren't. And so if you're not learning in an environment that is teaching that, then you're only learning part of the game. And I think that the problem that I have seen, particularly once I got into the coaching role, was that nets can be good, but you've got to understand how to use nets. But it's not just a matter of bowling a never ending over or batting, you know, just batting for volume, the worst word I here in cricket these days. Where do you get the volume? It's not about volume. It's about the quality of the training and the quality of the learning environment. The coaches role, in my view, is to create a learning environment, not be didactic, not be the owner of all the wisdom, but be able to create the environment that imbues the education.

Cam Tradell [00:13:13] Incredibly insightful because context is key, taking that to another level. What are some of the key aspects that an official, an umpire can provide to assist at any level of the game?

Greg Chappell [00:13:27] Yeah, it's a really good question because the good umpires stand out. Generally, they're good human beings. They are the people that have got a little bit of an understanding that not everyone's perfect, perhaps no one's perfect and that people are going to make mistakes. Cricket is an emotional game or sport is an emotional activity. And sometimes emotions run over and people say things and and maybe do things or threaten things that may be not appropriate. And the best umpires have been the ones that have handled the whole environment the best. They generally were good decision makers. Some of the worst numbers were the ones who were so fixated on getting the decisions right that they the environment got out of hand. Whereas the better umpires sometimes make mistakes, umpires will always make mistakes. You were prepared as a player to accept a mistake from an umpire that you knew who was a good bloke and ran the game well, understood that they was going to be some emotion running over from time to time. Mel Johnson was one who stood out in my time. From an Australian point of view, Mel hadn't played first class cricket, but he played premier great cricket. He understood the game. He was a school teacher, so he understood young men, young people. And so he he could read the situation. Well, know Dickie Bird in England was another. Now the good umpire for the same reason. I mean, Dickie Bird had no right to be a good umpire. He was the most nervous, anxious individual that I ever met. But somehow he got his decisions right generally. But he also allowed the game to ebb and flow. But when something looked like it was going to get out of hand, he would step in. And the good umpires did that, they would just say to the captain "mate watch out this situation starting to get out of hand. You better handle it." They never let it go too far. And there was a little bit of give and take, you had a relationship with those umpires, they weren't the only two, they were other good ones around. But you actually had a relationship with the umpire as a player and as a captain. And it was really important. You didn't have to be the best of mates with the umpires. There had to be a bit of distance. But a good relationship between the captain and the umpire made a really big difference because all the umpire had to do was say, "Greg, this is a bit of an issue you better sort it out" and you knew that he meant it, and you knew that if you wanted the relationship to continue, you had to handle it. And so most things were handled on the field. I think what's happened since we've got match referees and third umpires, fourth umpires, DRS and all of that, the responsibility has been taken off the field. And I think that's made a huge difference, and you're not getting, I don't see the same relationships that existed before you took the responsibility off the field.

Cam Tradell [00:16:44] There's a lot to sort of unpack there because, I mean, those relationships become so important. The environments that they create with the coaches, the officials and the players all communicating well tend to be the the best environments to compete in any way.

Greg Chappell [00:17:00] Communication, you mentioned the word communication. That's key in any environment. You know, if you've got a standoff where you've got someone who's saying, look, that's not my responsibility or no, I've got to focus on this, I can't afford to distract myself by all that sort of stuff, then the environment is going to go downhill.

Cam Tradell [00:17:19] Fantastic Greg, thanks very, very much. We really appreciate it. There's a lot for us to think about and a lot for us to take away and I'm certain that a lot of community coaches will learn a lot from that. Thank you very, very much for your time today.

Greg Chappell [00:17:30] My pleasure, Cam. Nice to talk to you.

Cam Tradell [00:17:35] Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.

Coaching and Officiating podcast series - Brad McGee

Cam Tradell [00:00:04] This is a Sport Australia podcast production. Hello, and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and I'm the project lead for coaching officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics.

Cam Tradell [00:00:35] Today, we are lucky enough to be joined by Brad McGee, a former Australian professional racing cyclist who has competed at four Olympic Games, as well as the coveted Tour de France. Bradley is an Olympic and Commonwealth champion across four Olympics. He has won one gold, one silver and three bronze medals. He's a five-time Commonwealth gold medalist and a member of the Sport Australia Hall of Fame. As a coach, he has been head coach of the New South Wales Institute of Sport from 2012 to 2020 and has also become the National Men's Road coach from 2013. Brad is passionate about enriching the Australian community through a strong international sporting presence. Brad, your résumé and experience speaks for itself, and we thank you for joining us tonight.

Brad McGee [00:01:22] Cam, my pleasure. I feel quite honored. I've listened to many of these and really appreciate them.

Cam Tradell [00:01:27] I really appreciate the support. You've had a career in cycling that sort of went to the heady heights, but it all started somewhere, and I'm really keen to understand where did it start? And do you remember when you fell in love with the sport, and do you remember who helped you?

Brad McGee [00:01:45] Oh, definitely. Memory lane is wonderful. It feels so long-ago Cam. It really does. Essentially, it all started at the Parramatta Cycling Club way back in the early 80s. Youngest of four boys. So, my oldest was doing a little bit of triathlon, wanted to be cycling, and so that meant we went off to the local cycling club, Parramatta Holroyd Cycling Club at the time. And it only transpired years later that my grandfather, who we're very close to my uncle, were big, big-time members of this club. But we knew nothing, nothing of this until years later. But I sort of fitted in with the what the feeling was when we went into this club. It felt like family almost immediately, just welcomed in. Everything was new and before you knew it, you know, my eldest brother and all the other brothers followed into the sport, and so did my father and my mum made a lot of sandwiches to feel it all really, but there was just a lovely club culture.

Cam Tradell [00:02:44] Do you remember your first coach and what they used to do to one either make you love the sport or question your love for the sport?

Brad McGee [00:02:51] Well, I need to put my old man John down as my first coach as he is, and I'll call it out. He might disagree with this one, but we're at Dubbo going to the Easter carnival. I went up there, didn't have a bike, but my brothers had all started the cycling thing. I was a soccer player Cam, loved it. And before you know it there's a competition for my age group. It must have been under 12s or under 10s or something and but didn't have a bike wasn't a problem because my brother Rod was in the race just before. So, the plan was that when he finished, I could jump straight on the bike, but things sort of turned around a little bit and technically I was a bit challenged because it meant that I was on the first race. My dad would stand about 50 meters after the finish line and catch me, we weren't allowed to do one lap wind down on this 400-metre flat track and my first coach, John my old man, is coaching with brilliant is like "Great race son. Get off" and here I am, going around in sneakers and stubby shorts and a hand-me-down Parramatta jersey with a number that basically wrapped around me twice. That was the start and that was punched on. It wasn't too long before I was coming through the ropes, and it was time to get a real coach early. And that was my dad making a decision because he couldn't keep up with me anymore at training. And so, coach John Beattie, dear old friend, God love him, rest in peace John. But JB was just a classic club coach, absolutely dedicated to the cause, and he was there to help anyone and then know as, he was there to help anyone in measured ways that were appropriate to that individual. So even as a 13, 14-year-old, I was allowed to go out in some of these rides, but there's no way I was allowed to have a training program. It was all measured and just, you know, just enough for you to keep getting better and no more. And so, my first program with JB wasn't until I was about 15 years of age, and there were probably three days of written training sessions on the program. A couple of free days, do what you want type thing. I love those days Cam, because I could go out and absolutely rip it to pieces. I wasn't, I didn't have to be so controlled. But again, J.B. and his measured appreciation of what each individual needed is what I like to think of. We talk about high performance. He was a high performing coach.

Cam Tradell [00:05:16] So he's servicing the motivation. So, could he tell the difference between someone who is motivated to go on and be the greatest rider they want to be? And then also, those other ones that, yeah, sure, they wanted to compete, but were never, ever going to ride for Australia. Could he differentiate between the two and sort of challenge them at different levels.

Brad McGee [00:05:34] Absolutely. That was the key. So, a lot of group riding and it wasn't just JB, if you had a Group ride as young kids, every one of your elders is like a coach looking at your peddle style, you know, your position on the bike, giving a little tips and feedback. And then JB could recognise and after reflecting back he could basically see the potential I had. He was training me towards bigger and better things where a lot of guys and girls in the club, they were happy to be club champions on the Saturday. I would have been too. I wasn't realising at the time, but he was training me for bigger things, constantly layering in that extra pressure, on the pedals, not pressure to win, but just always, you know, I just feel like every session was almost achievable if you just focused and put in. And there was a lot of there's a lot of lost lunches, sorry mum, some of those sandwiches went to waste. But I loved every minute of it. I was just challenged, suitably challenged right in that sweet spot.

Cam Tradell [00:06:30] Really interesting. You remember when it changed? Do you remember when you emerged on the stage and you actually started to set your eyes from not realising that you're just being challenged and getting there, to, actually, I think I can be good at this sport. Do you remember that little transition in your own mind?

Brad McGee [00:06:45] Oh, absolutely. I was beyond my miles. Very obvious. Essentially, I went through puberty quite late, like between 15 and 16, so it was between a state and a national championships that I went from an also ran kid that tried really hard and threw up off every race to a kid who tried really hard, threw up at every race and was winning them at a national level. It just come on in a flurry. And so, for me, I was just trying as hard as I could, whatever the challenge was in front of me. The only difference being now was, you know, with a bit of physicality that I was able to win by races. And that was like, oh, wow, this thing really works, you know? Suddenly, I wasn't thinking about being a soccer player anymore.

Cam Tradell [00:07:23] That's really interesting. So, you were coming in the middle of the pack, so to speak, but you've learnt the micro skills, you've learnt all the skills. So, when maturation took over, all of a sudden that's what elevated you to being an elite in the sport.

Brad McGee [00:07:37] Yeah, there was definitely no, I wasn't being lost and confused by any oh, you could win this, you win that idea at a young age, it was focused on your style and your breathing and aerodynamics. I'd come back from a race, and I remember announcing to my brothers and my old man, John, "I was spinning, dad I was spinning". You know, I must have just learnt that one the week before that spinning on the bike. That was a big, big sensation and win for that club race. And I guess that was the focus that John and the other members of the club were able to put on us. It was more around the technical skills and the acquisition and there were small wins all the way. The actual winning bike races, it was never the focus, it was so far from the focus. Yeah, sure, there was medals around and things like that, and that would be nice. There was a bit of prize money, maybe some flowers for mum, but it was the least thing on my mind up until actually I started winning and that almost came by surprise.

Cam Tradell [00:08:38] Incredible. And then you've got that next journey where it's not just winning the race, you're actually being the best in the world, you are sort of making that transition through that, which must be incremental. Now, other factors, other pressures start coming in. How did you navigate that and who helped you through that sort of transition phase?

Brad McGee [00:08:59] Yes, I guess that's when, you know, as a 16, 17-year-old, kind of knocking on the door of national team, the future national teams, this is a lot more people in the picture there. You go from your, your father, your brother's, club coach JB and a few other regulars at the club, to the junior Nationals coach Pete, there was a state coach Gary Sutton, there was national coach Charlie Walsh knocking on the door and wanting to have a conversation. And then, you know, there's a lot more influence. But for me that J.B. was there with me the whole way through and we, you know, I think he just installed in me just, you know, keep it simple, keep it specific, don't overdo it, was a big lesson. Kind of leave a little bit in the tank for tomorrow, and slow and steady was definitely the approach, and we were able to influence up with that. I remember my father specifically talking with Charlie Walsh, "don't burn him out, he doesn't need a lot". You know. And we were still quite fresh to the sport, we didn't know much about what was really needed, but we knew what was needed for myself. And so, I guess just maybe out of naivety, we were able to influence those other coaches that you start to be introduced to.

Cam Tradell [00:10:14] It's amazing, isn't it? The journey seems seamless. It seems accelerated through the fact that it wasn't actually winning and being the world champion. It was all actually driven by a love of the environment that the sport created for you.

Brad McGee [00:10:30] Oh, absolutely. And I just loved going fast on my bike, and I was absolutely obsessed with the processes around that. You know, the winning bit was almost symptomatic, I guess. You know, "oh yeah. and I won". But the self-assessment, even on a win where I could have gone a little bit faster? Could of I held my head down? Well, if I didn't push the heart rate up quite so early, I wouldn't have vomited before the finish line, I would have got an extra couple of seconds. Yeah, things like that. Really just, you know, just fascinated by all of those processes. The winning became nice, but it was a value add, I guess. I think I was just fortunate Cam that I didn't have that physical presence at a really young age. The winning part and the complexities that winning brings was kept from me for a number of years, I got those early years of development, coupled with JB's approach. I was just very fortunate. It's a difficult thing to sidestep. I know I've had young kids come through sports and how do you distance the win lose effects and focus on those early processes and celebrating those? It's really tough, tough measure. Again, it takes a high-performing coach at that level. I was completely committed and capable of the coaching and measured doses for appropriate ages and skill levels.

Cam Tradell [00:11:51] You've now done the full loop because now you're back coaching other people. How much of your coaching method is built from the experience of everything that happened to you and then you brought to life? And how much of it is yourself? How much of it do you bring out? And what are some of the philosophies you use in your coaching?

Brad McGee [00:12:09] Oh, definitely. If you talk about philosophies of carrying that, don't try to do it all today. You know, training, if you like what you're after, is that adaptation and adaptation just needs a measured dose of stimulus and recovery. And you've got to think in your cycles, you know, your micro to your macro cycles, but just enough to get that adaptation is what you're after and that takes some practice. But it's something I've really grown and formed into my coaching philosophy now and I'm early days in that coach development space now, and I'm intrigued by how many of our amazing coaches take on this as well. It's definitely present and we talk about success, but we talk about sustained success. This is why it’s heavily linked, going from a high performer to like a recidivist a high performer, that's what we're after, were trying to achieve mastery here. That's not just from a pop-up flash in the pan result, that's from years, if not a decade of continued success at the top end. So that measured dose is something I've really grown since working with JB all the way back in the early 80s, and I think some of the great coaches I've been exposed over years. Just had that in, you know, in your Gary Sutton's or, your Macca McKenzie's, they knew that that was super crucial and you're not really holding the athlete back, you’re just enabling the athlete to have an autonomous element into how much they actually do. It's not, I've got too, oh I get too. It’s a change in mindset but has a completely different result in the adaptation space.

Cam Tradell [00:13:48] I really like that intrinsic motivation to be there is that I'm doing it because I want to be here rather than it's a Tuesday and I have to go. You're right. It's a nuance, but it's a big one.

Brad McGee [00:13:58] Absolutely. It's just leaving that little bit out for the athlete to springboard off, I like to think of it. They take that leap of faith in knowing that there's support around and then they'd be maybe more than willing to push down on that springboard, which is the platform that you've built as the coach, and they'll jump into the darkness knowing that you're there to catch them on the other end. I look back to what would that look like in my days as an athlete? As a twenty-one-year-old under the Charlie Walsh regime, was a eleven months program given to you in a folder about that thick, and at every breakfast, lunch and dinner and training session for the next 11 months, fell out. And I took that on board, and said yep, but me being that egotistical little kid that I was, I was like, I'll do all that and I'll do mine as well. So, I'll put a few extra sessions in there and look on the Australian record as it was and things like that. I was nuts. But that was how much I believed in me that I needed to have, that I needed to have my own imprint on what I was doing.

Cam Tradell [00:14:57] To have your ownership to what you're doing and then see the value and I guess, allow your athlete to make some mistakes to learn from. To understand where the guidance comes from, how important do you think that is?

Brad McGee [00:15:08] What does it look like today, you know I’ve worked through the, you know, the professional ranks there with guys like your Richard Ports and your Michael Matthews and you know, Alberto Contador’s and in recent years before, you know what I'm doing now with the Australian women's team, the Amanda Spratts or Chloe Hosking, what they look like today? It's these athletes having their own confidence, their own circle of trust, their own support network, no matter what team or structure they're with. And I think these are key elements to enabling that athlete to have the feeling that they've got that autonomy in really dictating their career and their performances. I think once you get up into the big game, it grows beyond just you. You need that close circle of trusting supporters around you and that can be anyone. It could be more technical support side of things that could be just emotional. You know, there's many different shapes that that takes, but it's part of that autonomy that we need to bring in and enable in our athletes. And I've seen it time and time again in our top performers and how important that is.

Cam Tradell [00:16:21] Those interpersonal relationships become key. Sometimes an athlete or I mean, even at the club level, doesn't want to tell the coach something, but might tell the strapper something.

Brad McGee [00:16:31] I believe our coaches need their own small, I call it small because I think beyond two or three is probably starting to get a little bit to unravel a little bit. But having you know, your own team of confidants. It is a critical friend, mentor, coach, whatever you want to call it. Having your people, that you know that you can rely on no matter what organisation or jersey or colour you're sporting.

Cam Tradell [00:16:57] Do you feel that's important at all levels of coaching, knowing that they have other pressures? They got work. They've got other things. Do you see that as being a key component to coaching at all levels?

Brad McGee [00:17:06] Well, what it relates to I think, i think back to JB. Yeah, he was more than happy to hand over, if you like in star athlete to Gary Sutton or a Peter Day, knowing that you know he's impact, his time was done. You know, he's forever in my heart. I'm forever thankful to him and his family. But you know, the actual coaching space was probably only about two years, but I actually worked intently, with JB and then it was time to hand over in transition. And that at the time, reflecting back was an amazing feat. You know, it was at a time where coaches held on to their athletes, coaches held on to their knowledge. What we now recognise, you know, sharing knowledge is more powerful than holding knowledge, being able to transition athletes and being an active participant or be it at a lessening intensity, I guess as we transition our athlete through, we know that's important. You look at what our swimming teams just done in Tokyo and in getting that transition piece, right. It's absolutely key in performance. But JB back in the 80s, you know? He had that. I don't know where it came from, but he had that and that was. Imagine if they try to hold on to his young charge for an extra year or two and I faulted and didn't make that state team, didn't make this national team. Maybe the soccer pathway might have had to be put back on the agenda Cam, I'm not sure, I wouldn't have lasted longer. Both legs mate, I was going nowhere.

Cam Tradell [00:18:35] It's incredible because I think those communities of practice at all levels and you're right, the critical friend, the person, the mentor, the one to speak about other aspects of your life. But what's going right in this session? Because the external view to what's happening when, again, the old saying You're too close to the woods, the sea, the trees, sometimes they hear the conversation. What did I say then? What was the action? What was the reaction? And to have those people to provide that insight? That's key to learning and growing.

Brad McGee [00:19:06] And the beauty is, you know, Australian sports get so many opportunities of experience opportunities to reflect through and grow from. Now, I don't believe we have to create too many more learning experiences, reflect through them with your trusted team, personal team, and that's the growth and development, or a big part of it. It's, you know, and we can even go back in time and reflect through past experiences. But you've got to build up those trusting relationships for that to be effective.

Cam Tradell [00:19:35] Look, Brad, we've got some incredible insight today and agree 100 per cent. That's it sounds like your journey from the first time you've got on the bike to all the heady heights to now re-engaging back in the sport, you can still hear it. The passion for your sport through that experience that you lived through is clear. It's evident that this has impacted heavily on your life. Thanks so much for your time this afternoon.

Cam Tradell [00:20:06] Thank you for joining me today. If you'd like to find out more about coaching and officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at Workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching officiating series.