Brooke Kneebush [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our coaching and officiating podcast series. My name is Brooke Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with special guests each episode. I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics.
Brooke Kneebush [00:00:33] The theme for today's podcast is how you improve, including a modern approach to officiating, continuous learning, reflection, coping, and thriving. Today I'm joined by Kay Robinson, who is the National Wellbeing Manager, Refereeing at Football Australia, where she works with officials, leaders and stakeholders to drive positive change and support the wellbeing of officials. Thanks for joining us, Kay.
Kay Robinson [00:00:53] Thanks, Brooke. Really excited to be here. I'm speaking to you from Djarawong nation and looking forward to embracing the Aboriginal tradition of storytelling through our podcast today.
Brooke Kneebush [00:01:04] Fabulous looking forward to it. So, Kay, you hold quite a unique position with football Australia. It's a role not commonly found in national sporting organisations. Can you tell us about your role?
Kay Robinson [00:01:16] Absolutely. So, I'm National Wellbeing Manager for the Referees at Football Australia and that stems from the elite level where I offer support to our elite panel of referees on the A-leagues as well as the Referee Department and also do some work trying to promote wellbeing in our community referees.as well. I've come from a sports physio background, so I've had a career in sport, and I guess it was kind of linked to my wellbeing that made me have a little bit of a transition moving away from the travel associated with sports physio and also really the, the time I did spend travelling really kind of grew my interest in athlete and sport wellbeing and it's given me the great opportunity to introduce a wellbeing strategy in an area that doesn't have many wellbeing strategies in officiating. So, the role is a combination of one-to-one support with our, our panels as well as group development and a bit of staff development. And working into some policies that can support the wellbeing of everyone involved in refereeing. So really try and take a bit of a departmental and systems approach. So that means that it's not just one person there for wellbeing, it should be the system provides good wellbeing support.
Brooke Kneebush [00:02:34] That's great because the wellbeing of officials right through from community level to high performance is also important. So, Kay, the role of the official extends well beyond applying the rules of the sport. The best officials are participant centered, emotionally intelligent, excellent communicators, quick and accurate decision makers, and uphold high ethical standards. And these are just some of the attributes expected of officials. So, to keep on top of all of these requirements, it makes sense that continuous learning is central to modern officiating. How can continuous learning impact officials’ wellbeing, and what type of skills can officials work on to contribute to their own positive wellbeing?
Kay Robinson [00:03:17] So important and probably a shift that we've seen in officiating, particularly in the recent years, as we bring in wellbeing and the importance of that, that growth mindset and it's so much more about more than the technical black and white these days is much more around managing the game and communications as well. Refereeing can be so all-encompassing and demand so many commitments, so I think wellbeing can sometimes be looked at as a little bit fluffy. But there's such strong links to performance and that health and wellbeing grounding is crucial, but it's really important that they have the mindset to be able to overcome obstacles like with, with athletes on the field, the selection obstacles they might make poor, might have a bad game and, and using that reflection and opportunities for growth is really crucial so that they can, can see those things rather than a bad game as actually a learning experience and moving forward. And I think it's really important with all this that we can work on doing this together, as a team. Officiating can be really isolating and so how we can work to promote this amongst each other and amongst our team is, is pretty important too.
Brooke Kneebush [00:04:32] Great. And you've raised some really important points there. Let's look more closely at this growth mindset to start with. So, a growth mindset begins with understanding self. Why is it important for referees or any officials really to have good self-awareness? And what does that involve and, and how do you develop it?
Kay Robinson [00:04:52] I think one of the first questions I ask a referee and I've done this from the start. Just trying to understand why people go into refereeing and officiating. We all know that no one's there waving a flag for the referees. There's very few people in the stands, maybe family and a few friends who are cheering for the referees, so there's gotta be a really intrinsic reason of why someone's out there. So, my first question to most referees that I work with is why? Why do you do it? And I think that, you know, that leads to so many other areas in our life to really understand our why gives us really good self-awareness and some of the examples I've seen that in referees being involved in a game they love. A lot of it's around leadership and being able to lead other people. Giving back to the game. There's a huge thing around connections as well. You know, you make lifetime friends, you make connections with the wider footballing societies. There's so many, many varied whys, but it's important to understand that for yourself is really important because that's why often links to your values and if things maybe aren't, aren't going your way, being able to draw someone back to why they're there and the foundations of doing it can sometimes help as a bit of a reset, particularly if they've had a bad couple of games, bad season or there’s other things going on in their life. And equally keep coming back to if their why is still there. So, I think obviously reflection is key. We go to that deeper kind of why. But on a day-to-day basis, being able to reflect on how you've done and that doesn't just have to be in a game, it's did I sleep well? Is there anything I can do better? Are there any resources I can look at and that's where I'm available to support people, find those resources as well. But a lot of the work's gotta be done by the individual to find out where they wanna go and I think change needs to be intrinsically motivated to be valuable to that person. It's no good me going around and telling everyone they've got to have a certain amount of hours sleep per night or do this specific recovery. But maybe I can prompt the questions or the areas that maybe, maybe need to be reflected on and help with that process, whether it's a match day reflection and sometimes that's minimising. Yeah, I know we've had some officials who will spend hours and hours reflecting, which actually probably isn't great for their wellbeing because it takes up time and it becomes a little bit of a chore. So we've looked with individuals and it's such a unique thing of what works best for them and how they can get the most out of it and whether it's talking it through, writing it down, there's so many ways, but it needs to be individual, but sometimes just a few little prompts to, to aid reflection or a few tools has been found to be really beneficial.
Brooke Kneebush [00:07:44] Yeah. And you talked about that sort of over reflecting and sometimes that can be a cycle of really dwelling on a negative which can't be good. We need to use that reflection to look at ways to, you know, perhaps improve on that next time. Can you suggest some other ways that people can reflect because as you said, it's a really individual thing and people should be doing what works for them.
Kay Robinson [00:08:07] Absolutely. And I think one of the first conversations I have is being realistic with time, I think we mentioned you can have, you can over reflect, but you can also then eat into other things that are really important to you, whether this be family time. So, I think it's understanding the time frame that you have available and being able to mold something into that. So, finding the tool or the process that's right for you and very rarely does that come as the first thing you try. I think goal setting is so powerful as well, because then you can, you can link your reflection and it's often easy to get those outcome goals. And I know with our panel it's often referee at a World Cup or become a FIFA referee, which are fantastic outcome goals. But there's so much outside your control. So, it's fine to have those overarching goals to be the best that you possibly can but then it's thinking about those processes and what, what's put in place to get those processes. So, I like to suggest a bit of a hierarchical goal system where it's fine to have those overarching and it doesn't always need to be a, an event. It can be a feeling almost or a dream that people want to go and then really try and break that down to processes. The processes right that might be to improve my physical training or meet a certain fitness test requirement and then breaking that down into smaller steps as well around how are you gonna do that? And it nothing's perfect. So, it's actually a more about effort or engagement rather than I'm going to do something this many times a week because curve balls come into life, we know that. Other techniques that kind of more practical things, obviously using footage. I know our, our referees use footage. There’s feedback from coaches, there’s potentially even using footage from different leagues and reflecting on how you would do decisions. There’s journaling. I know some, I think it's a love it or hate it side. Some people really like that, that writing down, and I find that often with feedback from our officials gives a little bit of closure. They write back something that potentially was a challenge, something that really went and a learning point and then almost actually, literally draw a line under it and go - that's what I’ve taken and now it's time to move on. I can't change anything that happened. However, I might take some of those learnings into the next game.
Brooke Kneebush [00:10:33] Excellent. And I really like the way that you touched on when you're talking about process goals and not only those big target goals, but the engagement element. And I think that engagement with your stakeholders is such a massive part of officiating and can make such a difference to the way that your stakeholders feel about it, but also how you feel about it. Now you touched on the propensity sometimes of officials to dwell on mistakes, but unfortunately, sometimes we do make mistakes just like athletes do. That's, that's what sport is about and why we have officials, really. So how do you support football referees to manage at the time that they actually might make a mistake and then afterwards in in reflection?
Kay Robinson [00:11:16] Yeah. And as you say, it's so important in the refereeing world. All athletes make mistakes, but particularly in a team sport, life carries on. A referee can make a mistake and it it's in the headlines and talked about for the next little while, so I think that's where you know, wellbeing support’s crucial across the board, but a mistake shouldn't be a wellbeing issue if we're dealing with it well because as you say, mistakes happen and we don't want those mistakes to have a wellbeing impact. But sometimes they do. Particularly kind of with the noise and sometimes with other things going on in people's lives. Sometimes a mistake that happens can then uncover other things, but the first thing is done, led by a coach and probably 9 times out of 10. It's talked about, it's reflected on. It's dealt with, but there's always then further support offered if needed. Hopefully the safe, this space is safe to be able to discuss the mistake, discuss some learning points, discuss anything that can be, be done from a team point of view to support them from it happening again, and getting some constructive feedback from both ways. But that deeper feedback might not happen straight away. It's often important to just give some time and space for self-reflection. Ideally, don't leave it too long, because it can then ruminate a little bit. But I know a lot of our small teams themselves will have some feedback immediately in the changing rooms, not necessarily with the coach, but that support of other people who've been through the same situation and were out there at the same time is really needed. So, it's about overcoming disappointment. It's about normalising those mistakes and then looking at some strategies around that and you know, bringing in gratitude and the things that have gone well. A football game is 90 minutes. We usually spend 90% of our time talking about the potential 30 seconds where there's a mistake. So, it's trying to draw out some of the positives from that other 89 1/2 minutes of a game that have probably gone really well is really important. Sometimes this is self-talk and sometimes this is taking self-talk into the next game or again journaling of actually writing. Why? Why are you there? Why are you good at that role? What went well last time? What are your strengths? Just to go out with that positive, positive outlook. And trying to stay in the moment.
Brooke Kneebush [00:13:37] And I can see lots of the suggestions that you're making. There are really self driven and not just about a, you know, a coach or an official person with a wellbeing title which is really important because a lot of our officials in in other sports may not have an officials coach and that the sport itself might not have quite as many resources but, as you said, talking to someone who may have experienced similar can be really useful. What are some other ways that you can seek out those opportunities yourself? Not necessarily through formal channels?
Kay Robinson [00:14:13] Absolutely. I think you know, I understand at community level you might be alone officiating. If you know you're going to be by yourself. Is it that you can have, even if it's somebody not connected with football or somebody there? So, you know, you've got some support. Can you talk through how you're feeling before with somebody in a similar situation or has been in a similar situation? This could be a mentor, I think. Reach out, ask people for support. People don't necessarily offer, but from my experience people are always willing to help and have a chat and that doesn't have to be a weekly formal catch up. It could be an as and when or a quarterly or whatever you decide amongst yourselves. But having someone to talk to and it doesn't just have to be ideally, someone who's going to be your cheerleader, it's probably somebody that can give you some, some constructive criticism, some learnings, but also you know that they've got your back.
Brooke Kneebush [00:15:07] Yeah, great. And getting back to self-reflection, you were talking about not only exploring the areas where you need improvement, but really digging into those areas where you're doing well. Can you talk a bit more about that?
Kay Robinson [00:15:21] Absolutely. And. And we know that positive emotion has greater links with wellbeing as well. So, if you're, if you're feeling positive, you're feeling good, it's likely to have a positive impact. And, and we talked about the we tend to focus on those negatives. And I think historically coaches have as well ultimately and that's where the modern approach is more, let's look at the great things we've done and draw away from everything's technical. So absolutely talk about the positive technical side - really important. There's so many other areas and that can lead back to some of our process goals. Just to widen that view a little bit, can come from positives in communication, like how crucial is communication in refereeing? Whether that's with the players, with the coaches, with your team, with stakeholders, and it probably needs to change, the way you do that for each person you're speaking to, so actually taking learnings from that. Understanding what went well around how you communicated, how you might have diffused a situation, how you spoke. Looking at preparation, you know is your, is your warmup the best it can be you, know are you just how does your day look and I think that, that's an important one to touch on, because it's important to have a routine, but be flexible in that routine as well, so it might be a case of, well, I tried to think slightly different, but that still works, so that's great. So now I know I can. If that creeps into my day, that's fine. So, it might have been seen as a negative that your car broke down that morning for example, but what a positive, that you still got there, you still performed. Everything went smoothly. You're adaptable, you're flexible. So, I think trying to turn all the, as many of the negatives into that. OK, but what, what were the positives I got out of it?
Brooke Kneebush [00:17:10] I imagine it could also help if you were in a mentor relationship with a less experienced official, someone who was aspiring to achieve what you've achieved, those learnings that you've had, it would be great to be able to share how you've overcome the challenges and and how that's impacted your resilience.
Kay Robinson [00:15:29] Absolutely.
Brooke Kneebush [00:17:30] So, you touched on physical health and exercise.
a little bit there. How can they contribute to mental wellbeing? And not all officials actually have physical roles like football officials. For instance, a criteria-based judge is sitting for long, long periods of time. Have you got any tips and tricks for those types of officials as well?
Kay Robinson [00:17:52] Yeah, for sure. So, I think the foundations are good, wellbeing are exercise, sleep and eating well. And we can try and bring all these extra things in. And I know, kind of it's a bit of a buzzword and there's all sorts applying, but so crucial to get those things and I think you know our our football referees are lucky because exercise is a component that they kind of have to do to to be at that level of refereeing. And so that even at community, you know if you're not, you're not doing at least a little bit of training, you're probably going to be struggling on game day. So that I think that kind of helps it ticks off, however, that training is probably not always important for health, mental health and headspace, and it's been it's important to recognise that and sometimes it's a swim or walk by the beach or something that you really value, that might have a better impact on that. But it is hard if you're a referee that or an official or a judge that, you're spending a whole day inside a building and you don't have the opportunity to exercise, and that's not part of your role. That's another thing that you have to add in to your probably job and family and social connections and travel and all the other things. So, it's trying to make it a habit and a routine.as whether it be every day that's often unfeasible, and people set that every day mark and go can't do it too hard, so it's it's starting small. It's going once a week. I'm going to set my alarm 45 minutes earlier to get up and do this. Routine is really important. Routines really hard when you're travelling, so I'd say start small and if you can start something but tick some other boxes. Whether it's being outside, if you're stuck inside all day or you know something that involves a little bit of breath work, so swimming's great for that. I think from your point of judging, it's really hard to sit still for a long time and maintain focus. And I think you know, we're seeing that a little bit more with with VAR. These people that are doing VAR are usually very active on the pitch moving all the time and now have a role that involves sitting down. Trying to have little movement breaks, and that doesn't need to be stand up and go for a run. Its, stand up and sit down and stand up three times, even if you've only got 15 seconds or stand up, see if you can get outside, take a few breaths. So, when you are sat in that chair or sat on a pool deck, which can be really hot, you know, all those environments aren't great for our cognition Usually, we're really focused and astute. It's absolutely not easy.
Brooke Kneebush [00:20:28] Great. Thank you. Let’s take a a bit of a different tack now. So, we know that officials are sometimes concerned about dealing with difficult stakeholders. It might be unruly spectators, angry coaches, frustrated players and I do want to flag here that this type of behaviour towards officials is, is not OK. Perpetrators of disrespectful treatment toward officials need to be held to account and, and the Australian Sports Commission and national sporting organisations like Football Australia, they are certainly working hard to prevent these behaviours. But what are some tools that you recommend officials equip themselves with to manage challenging situations when they do arise?
Kay Robinson [00:21:06] Absolutely. And a challenging one that I wish I wish we didn't have to discuss, but absolutely we I think we see it across all sports and at all levels and potentially even more impactful at that community level because you don't necessarily have such support structures around you. So, and I think not trying to take that on as something that the individual official should be having to deal with. A lot of people have come up to me since I've been in the role and said “What are you gonna do about match official abuse?” And I'm like, “well, what's society gonna do and what's the football ecosystem?” One person, I'm I can support the referees, but it it's a much bigger picture and I think it's important for officials to understand that, that it's almost not their job to change people's behaviours. Like there, there are things that they can do, and I think bottom line at whatever level you are, it's understanding the things that you can do. So, what’s in your power to control this and I know in some areas we've got a few new things coming in and there's the sin bins coming in in areas of football and things. So, it's actually having a clear understanding of what you can do and trying to do that at the right time. Just trying to, I guess, empower all our officials to use those tools effectively. So it does have an impact, but things like sending off, stopping play. Speaking up, reporting. I think understanding what's there and hopefully as a collective doing as much as we can to minimise that behavior.
Kay Robinson [00:22:37] Having, having a strong support system in place is crucial, and that's inside and outside football at higher up level, you're more likely to have kind of support from a system, but potentially at grassroots it's finding that support from family, friends, mentors, people at the member federation or state system, or community level that you know that they've got your back and hopefully well if you don't feel comfortable to speak up, they might be able to and and then as we've said, unfortunately these things happen. So, it's having strategies in place to try and minimise the effect it has on you. And this might be talking, you know, a lot of people go just want to talk it through, get it off my chest and can move on. It might be drawing on those positives. The things that did go well and not letting get overshadowed one episode overshadow what's been a really good game. And you know, the 90% of people who've been appreciative of your work. And I think generally there are a lot of people who are, but they're not the ones that shout out from the stands. And obviously at the more elite level, you're going to have social media impact and it it's looking at ways to some people go - not gonna have any, any impact with social media. Not gonna read it. Not gonna use it. I think as the younger generation comes through, that's almost not possible for them. So, it's being able to advise how, how they can minimise the impact it has.
Brooke Kneebush [00:24:06] And the great news is that there's actually some new rules and laws around social media coming, not soon enough, but hopefully there's a brighter future there. OK, so officiating can be intense. We've, we've talked about difficult situations, but it might be that there's an important competition you're officiating, like a grand final or a selection event, or there might be prize money involved. And we know, you know, sometimes officials do make mistakes, and then when you add to that, juggling a job family, study it all really adds up. How can officials juggle all these balls in the air at the same time. Well, what are some ways that we can help them to cope and thrive.
Kay Robinson [00:24:49] Wish I had the magic bullet for this one Brooke. But it's absolutely a challenge and everyone's got different, different competing needs and wants and people around them that want different things from them. A way that we often talk about it is it's OK to have different things. I think really, you know, we understand that and hopefully everyone around us does, as well. Ensuring that you do you do with intent, whether that's family time, whether that's work, whether that's officiating and knowing your processes around each of those things is really crucial. So, it's OK if you have family time, you don't need to be thinking about officiating, but when you're on the field, that's when you need to be thinking about officiating. And you know some little, some work around, now, a lot of people I've spoken to have found it quite challenging to go from work straight to training and almost have that real shift in what they should be doing, and I, I heard an interview with a doctor not long ago who was a pediatrician and then would go home to his family and found that transition time really hard. And he always talked about having a cape. So, at work he has his cape and he almost, he started almost physically taking this make-believe cape off to go - OK, now I'm a Dad. And we talk about the same thing. For officials, it's a case of once that uniform’s on, you're an official. So, you've got that real separation. Because it's hard. We all know we come home from work and we're thinking about things we need to be doing. But if you're an official and you're out on a game that night, that's potentially going to impact performance. So, it's trying to find some strategies to have that, that separation and that might even be time that might be a I'm going to sit for 5 minutes. I'm just gonna breathe or listen to some music or do something that is a little bit of a circuit breaker between two things, but it is challenging and sometimes communicating those other things that are going on in your life can be beneficial, whether that's with a coach or mentor or a friend. Anyone really.
Brooke Kneebush [00:27:48] I love the analogy of the, the make-believe cape I, I actually do a similar thing and I'm an actress going on stage and everything else is out of mind while I'm out there doing what I do and then like you said, sometimes the minute you step off the field or or whatever it is, it's right back into it, but that's OK and it's almost like being out there, doing your thing is like taking a break. And sometimes if you if you're able to switch on and off like that, it can be really empowering.
Kay Robinson [00:27:17] Think is a really powerful skill to be able to do that as well, and again it takes practice like the other things and sometimes it won't work, but you build up that practice potentially in different, training for example. So, you have the skills going into a game day to do that.
Brooke Kneebush [00:27:32] Yeah, absolutely. So, we've talked about some challenges with officiating, but actually officiating can be really rewarding as well, and that's why we we do it, isn't it? And it can often actually contribute to positive wellbeing. So, what are some reasons that the referees you work with, enjoy what they do? Why do they keep coming back and how does officiating make their lives better?
Kay Robinson [00:27:56] Ohh so many ways and I think I've been really lucky to get such a great insight into some of these since I've been in my role, and I think there's a lot about giving back to the game and being part of football, which people love and have such a passion for. It can be a way to stay involved in a game as well. It helps develop the game. You know, we don't have referees, we don't, we don't have a game, Ultimately. I think speaking to a lot of our, our female officials, they're such role models for the future generation and support for the future generation and they get so much from that. A huge thing about working alongside peers connections, great friends and those that are on our FIFA panel, it often comes back to again just learning new cultures, connections, understanding people more is such a driver for spending many hours away from family and having unpaid leave from work. But you know that that travel and experiencing in new cultures is is such a huge pull at that level. And I think you know, one of one of the key, key things around wellbeing is that feeling of belonging in connection and how good is sport for that ultimately? Whether that's coaching, refereeing, playing, physioing being involved brings you that sense of belonging connection. So that's, that's huge amongst our referees. And it's a great way to combine physical and mental fitness as well. And you know, keep, keep cognitively ticking as well as the, the physical training component. And you know, I think the skills you develop can can pay you back for so many years to come. I know the, the World Economic Forum just released a, a least of kind of the top skills that they'll be looking for in in 2025. And it aligns so beautifully with referees. So even if it's at a community level and these referees and officials aren't looking to go to the, the highest level, the things that they can develop in leadership and communication are just so crucial for the rest of their life.
Brooke Kneebush [00:30:03] My yeah, for sure. I absolutely agree with you about those skills that particularly young people just getting started in officiating, the way that they can develop as people for whatever it is they go on to do for the rest of their life. It's, it's actually so exciting, but we need to get away now, Kay. But before we sign off, we did just want to offer some aftercare messages. Kay, we've spoken a lot about wellbeing today. What final suggestion do you have for officials to look after themselves?
Kay Robinson [00:30:35] I think ultimately, it's OK to say you're not OK and trying to find someone that's trusted that you can within your sport or outside your sport that then you can reach out to. And I think sport has, has that responsibility to provide that person and that space. I think there's people out there willing to support, and there's always, there's always strategies. There's always things that can be done. It's not so black and white that you must do this, this and this. But communication is key and sometimes potentially missing a training or missing a game is gonna be much more beneficial than forcing you out there. So it's fine to, we all have bad days and good days and, and try and communicate that as much as possible.
Brooke Kneebush [00:31:21] Thank you and remember help is available. It's important to seek support early if you find stress or anxiety starting to impact your daily life. Consult a GP, mental health professional or a mental health organisation such as Beyond Blue. If you require urgent support, call Lifeline on 13 11 14. Or if someone’s safety is in danger, call 000.
Thank you for sharing your time with us, Kay, and for your insights into the theme of How you improve for officials with a modern approach.
Kay Robinson [00:31:52] Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
Brooke Kneebush [00:31:54] And thanks to our audience for listening. To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission’s Community Officiating web page.
I'm Brooke Kneebush and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the coaching and officiating series.
Brooke Kneebush [00:32:08] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.