Narrator [00:00:03] This is a Sport Australia podcast production.

Cam Tradell [00:00:08] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Cam Tradell and l am the Project Lead for Coaching and Officiating at Sport Australia. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. In this episode, we dive into the world of officiating with Rugby Union referee Amy Perrett, Amy has officiated at the Women's World Sevens Series, the 2016 Rio Olympic Games, the Women's World Cup Rugby final in 2014 and will officiate at the upcoming Tokyo Olympic Games. In 2020, Amy became the first female to take charge with the whistle in a Super Rugby match. Welcome, Amy. How are you?

Amy Perrett [00:00:57] I'm really good. Thanks for having me on the podcast.

Cam Tradell [00:00:59] Fantastic. Thank you. Amy, I'll be really interested to understand, knowing that you have refereed at all levels and seeing you at the Super Rugby level. Do you have a process or what are your processes with regards to making decisions and basing them on what you see and how do you navigate through decision making.

Amy Perrett [00:01:19] Decision making now that I've been refereeing now for 18, 19 years or so. At the moment now it's all based on gut instinct, but to kind of get to that stage, you go through a lot of different things from where you start to when you get to elite. In Rugby, we have checklists for everything because, you know, so much is going on in the tackle or ruck. An average family who doesn't know rugby will probably think what is happening there. But, so we formulate these kind of checklists and they give us a process of what we need to look at each stage of a tackle, of a ruck, of the maul, or the lineout, all the different aspects of the game and as you are learning and developing those kind of decision making skills. They're the things that you going over at each phase. And the more experience you get, the better you get at it. What starts to become that gut feel, that potential kind of decision making mode. Once you figure all that out, it's funny because you start seeing refs then show that they know everything and probably over penalising and become way too technical. So once you realise you come to that stage and you blow 40 penalties in a game, most of the crowd kind of let you know that that's not what they want. We go through it like another stage and talk about making relevant decision. So, again, we can be very technical. I'm sure in any breakdown you could find a penalty that you want, but then we start talking about making a relevant decision. So is that a fair contest then? An even fair contest? That's good. Then we can kind of we can play away from that minor infringement. Is the ball quick? Is the team in attack able to get the ball as quick as they can if they can. And we say, OK, we can play away from that infringement. They are, I guess the two key things that we kind of, talk about, whether it is a fair contest, whether the speed of the ball's been affected and they now come into play around a relevant decision making. And I said the longer you kind of do it, it starts to become more of a gut instinct. And I don't know how many times I've overthought a decision and didn't trust my gut and I ended up being wrong. So that's kind of now what I kind of fall back on. You've always just kind of got the experience of all different styles and types of games to kind of get me that experience to just kind of trust those gut instincts. And there'll be times that I'm wrong. And that's OK, because that's another big part of our decision making process, and the journey to get to where you need to be because you learn from those mistakes and in Rugby,  some really weird stuff happens. And it might only happen once in your whole career, but you learn from it and you move on and figure out a different way so that you prepare for it again or it actually doesn't happen again, or you can pass it on to someone else so it doesn't happen to them or they are well prepared for it as well. And then when you get to the Super Rugby level, you just kind of have to be really confident. As you said, there's a lot of pressure coming at you from the crowd because they can watch a big screen, there is commentators and don't necessarily agree with your decision. Players and coaches are giving their two cents. So, again, just having confidence in yourself to be able to say, OK, this is what I'm seeing, right or wrong, this is how I'm going to call it, and then just move on. And most of the time, you actually are correct. I think that just having that confidence when going to get to that point, once you go through all these different phases, you get to the stage where you can back that. So if it doesn't happen overnight, you will go through this and it's those kind of stages in decision making before you can get to that stage with the confidence. And then you can trust your gut and practices.

Cam Tradell [00:05:44] It's interesting that you talk about the stages, because having that feel for the game becomes really important. And it's when you're looking at the impact of an infringement versus the severity, if you know what I mean. And I like that you talk about it's a real feel. I think there's a lot in that.

Amy Perrett [00:06:01] Yeah. And definitely you don’t just have to have a feel for the game when you get to the professional level. Having a feel for the game is so important at community level. Understanding what the players are trying to get out of out of the game and most of the time, they just want to have fun, play the game with their mates and have a game that can move and not stop and start all the time. So again, like I said, normally when we are refereeing community Rugby, we don't go to that stage and try to prove that we know everything and what those 40 odd penalties in a game which is just way too much. It's really important more so at that community level that you understand that, that you get that flow, let the guys play. You don't have to be perfect and they'll appreciate that better. And overall, I think everyone plays and spectates will have a better experience.

Cam Tradell [00:06:53] You talked a bit there about your communication and the different stakeholders that you need to communicate with.  On the field, you're a very clear communicator. How did you hone those skills, to be precise, to make a call, to communicate well? And then what's some of the other ways that you need to communicate? I'm guessing that after games or in reviews, you've got coaches that may come and ask questions. How do you best find your method or your way of communicating? And how effective do you find that you are in your communication?

Amy Perrett [00:07:28] Communication is a big part of the journey. When you start, you probably don't say a lot. Because you don’t know what’s happening. So its best to say nothing at all, But then again, as you move on, you start commentating the game and talk too much and then you start to learn when players respond, when they don't, depending on what kind of things you might say. And I found along the way this being really short, sharp and to the point is the best thing for players and at the outside spectators around the field, because if you walk along and over-explain something, particularly when people are under fatigue, the ref, like myself might not make sense because I'm tired. The players just probably just don't understand what you said. So if you just keep it two to one or two really simple messages, they have a far better impact on the game than commentating throughout the whole game or saying nothing at all. And it's about picking when you come in and when you need to stay out. You only want to come in when you have to actually have to manage a play and you think we'll get an outcome. There's no point saying stuff if you know you're not going to get the outcome, the desire the probably just going to give a penalty anyway or they've actually done the right thing and you just don't need to say anything at all. And you said the one big thing I found that's helped my communications is refereeing seven's. There's not a lot of time to talk so when you do get that opportunity, it has to be relevant and impactful for people to understand and get those kind of changes that you want to see. So I feel like that's been playing a huge part in where I've got now. Another thing like the first time I heard myself, a community that I think I was doing, a woman, a women's national tournament. And the first time I'd seen footage and heard myself. And it's a very uncomfortable moment with this, you know, you hear yourself refereeing because you just don't realise what you say and how often. And even just the tone of your voice you don't realise it's like that. So you learn from it where you can and listening back to to your conversations, to your tone of voice when you decided to say something, when you didn't and whether that was the right thing at that time of the game. And then communication like post match and coaches can always be a little bit tricky, depending on how the game went. And pretty much the only thing these things the other team were doing wrong, just to put those kind of images in your head and could manipulate me the way potentially. I think that might be the intention. And then post match, now you've got to really think about how you how you talked to a coach after the game. You don't want to put yourself in a corner or the next time you might say something the week after where you promised you wouldn't do. This is really it's a bit of a chess match, almost a bit of an arm wrestle still post much to communicate because there'll be times where they're just venting because they probably under pressure. You've got to understand that and not get overly offended and it's nothing personal, just part of the job. But there are times when you need to just back yourself. And this decision was correct for these reasons and it's a bit of an arm wrestle. And what I find helps is my referee coach, so the person I trust to be able to tell me or to assist me when I review the game this. I'm pretty good. I like reviewing games of around decisions, but not scrums always. That's one area that I'm never one hundred percent confident. I always seek help to make sure I got my decision making right, but around a tackle, I know that kind of area, you know for me, I can sit and review and I go, I got that one wrong or I got that one right so I don't really need extra eyes for that. Where I do need my coach is around those interactions with players and understanding the flow, or dominance, rewarding things being dominant around the game. But whether I set up the game so that it could get that nice flow and open rugby towards the back end and let players do their thing, I didn't have to come in. So it's those kind different aspects I'd go to my referee coach and talk to him about.

Cam Tradell [00:12:23] It's so important to have that sounding board. And it sounds like you've got great self-awareness and self reflection. But to have those extra set of eyes on those areas that you're unsure, I mean, maybe the gaps or where you could improve and be better, that's really interesting that you rely on it heavily, too.

Amy Perrett [00:12:39] Yeah, definitely. I think in all stages, like, no one's perfect and you always have to have that growth mindset and you have to know you're constantly learning something new each game and you're learning a new challenge and you kind of got to embrace if you want to get better, it's never going to be perfect. And there's always something that you can work on for the next game and having that person to kind of bounces those ideas off and it helps you kind of reach those goals that we need to make, because if you're just doing it on the run, you might not realise you do something. It could just be a tiny little fix and it can improve your game.

Cam Tradell [00:13:16] Entering into anything with the growth mindset if fantastic. Shifting gears a little bit. You've been referring fifteens at Super Rugby. And changing gears now to Sevens Rugby, having been appointed to officiate at the Olympics, how do you manage the two of those? Because they're two fairly distinct sports or fairly different sports. Even though the skills are the same, it's a different pace and a different mindset. How do you go about swapping between the two sports, especially at the elite level?

Amy Perrett [00:13:43] Yeah, it's something I think everyone struggles with, even the players coming back. For me, I find it harder to come back into the fifteens, sevens again I think sevens comes more natural and comfortable. It suits the style of my personality, I think, because I actually don't like going up and having to talk to people all the time on the field or do the pre-match where the sevens, I don't have to say much, I can just blow my whistle, move on. The game doesn't last too long. I can reflect straightaway on that game because then I have another game in about an hour or two hours, so I'm not sitting on something for a whole week, overthinking things that I did in the game. I can just get straight into it and move on. But I think the key things that are different and can be very difficult in decision making in sevens is very black and white that we don't operate in that grey area. You've been infringed or you haven't. And there's not a lot of management. So you see something, you generally just penalise and move on. And it's good because the players accept that as well. What they want to do is they just want to take a quick tap and move on. There is no kind of argument or like I said, there's not really that chess match or that arm wrestle with captains that you are trying to deal with. We could try to work with it either way and everyone is trying to manipulate to their advantage. So when I come back into fifteens, what I really try and focus on is making those relevant decisions, taking a breath before I call something, because the instinct is to just put my whistle to my mouth and blow a penalty. And so it's just taking that extra half a second just to see what happens, whether I can play away from something or whether I blow that penalty then and there so it takes a few weeks to kind of get that feel back, like if it's sevens it's that start and stop, not a lot of flow because if you do blow a lot of penalties you might blow ten penalties in 14 minutes, which is a lot. Whilst in fifteens you wouldn't dare to do that once you start giving out all the cards and then the spotlight coming on you, which is again, something you don't really want so for me it takes a few. Even the number of people on the field can be quite difficult around a tackle or a ruck because when it's one on one, very easy to see what's happening. So when got three of four people diving into something, you kind of get a bit lost sometimes. And then that makes you uncomfortable. Sometimes when you're uncomfortable, that's when you revert to what you know, and that probably shouldn't happen. So yeah, just being really that I just need to take my time, get the feel for the game, don't impose myself too much. And in the first ten minutes I start to get that feel back in and they'll still be a few decisions that I will get and review, and, you know, I didn't need to call them, I'm a little bit pedantic with sevens penalty, but yeah, just reflecting on that during the game and after and hopefully the next week, I'm a bit better get a bit more flow.

Cam Tradell [00:17:18] Amy, thanks very much for your time this afternoon and sharing your insights. Thank you for joining me today, if you'd like to find out more about Coaching and Officiating or have any feedback or questions, please email us at workforce@sportaus.gov.au. My name is Cam Tradell and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.