Brooke Kneebush [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to our Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Brook Kneebush and I'm the Senior Officiating Advisor at the Australian Sports Commission. I'm coming to you from the lands of the Boon Wurrung and Woi Warrung people in Victoria. Along with a special guest each episode, I'm here to talk about some important officiating topics. The theme for today's podcast is Who you officiate. This includes understanding modern participants, their varied motivations and needs, the flexibility required, and role of officials in these being fulfilled. Today I'm joined by Jacqui Jashari, who is an international and all Australian netball umpire and is currently on the Asian International Testing Panel for World Netball. Her day job has a rather long title, being Director, Sport Development and Engagement, Sport and Recreation with the Western Australian Department of Local Government, Sport and Cultural Industries. She also has many other strings to her bow, which we’ll no doubt hear about in today's podcast. So Jacqui, thank you for joining us.
Jacqui Jashari [00:01:08] Thank you very much for having me, Brooke. I'm here, in Boorloo, which is Perth in Western Australia, on the banks of the Derbarl Yerrigan. And I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land, the Whadjuk people of the Noongar, and pay my respect to Elders past, present and emerging.
Brooke Kneebush [00:01:25] Thanks very much, Jacqui. So, can you start by telling us about your journey in sport, how you came to be a netball umpire and your involvement from community right through to international?
Jacqui Jashari [00:01:37] Like everybody else, I started playing sport very young. I wanted to play lots of sports, so I was very fortunate. My dad was very sporty, and so he encouraged me to just play any sport that I wanted to. So, the list of sports I played was lacrosse. I did calisthenics, I did tap dancing, I did netball, I did basketball, I played a little bit of hockey, which I was not too good at. And then I decided, well, you know, I can try all those sports, but what was I most interested in? And what were the ones that I thought I could be fairly good at? So, I honed my skills into basketball and netball, becoming, state league basketball player, would you believe, and not so good at netball. But I ended up playing netball and coaching netball and ultimately umpiring netball. So, I started my journey down at Fremantle Netball Association. Then once I got a little bit older and I had children, I decided I'd do a bit of coaching. So, I dabbled in that for a bit. And then I was actually, you know, told, well, you got to go out there. It's part of your duties, as we all know, as a volunteer. So, I did go out and umpire and I was identified, as having a little bit of talent. And therein kind of started my journey in umpiring. So, and since then it's led me through to an international career, which has been fantastic. It's been, not not a long, long journey, but I think I say ten years of deliberate practice to get, you know, from community up to, you know, perhaps the elite level. So, you know, I was really fortunate when I was at Fremantle, I had some, you know, great role models down there, some beautiful mentors, and I and I loved it. You know, I just really enjoyed the social aspect.
And then I was kind of fast tracked into our WA Netball league. So, I went through my badge levels and I think the first season of WA Netball League, I got one game and I was over the moon. So, it was about a ten week season and I managed to knock one game in and wasn't invited back again. So, I think that just made me more determined. So went back to my association and you know, really, really worked hard there and then went through, got my all-Australian badge and then determined again, took me 6 years to get my international badge. So, you know, bunkered down and very determined to get that badge. So, I did. And since then, you know, I've been fortunate. It's. Taking me around the world, I've umpired at World Championships and Commonwealth Games. And met some wonderful people. And then it was a natural thing for me when I came off the court was to contribute, you know, back. So, I went back and started coaching umpires both at Community level, you know, WA Netball league and then national and international level. So, you know, it was just a natural experience. For me to do that and to go back and and give back, I guess.
Brooke Kneebush [00:04:26] Thanks for that. And I really liked hearing about the determination. And it actually seems like quite a common theme with some, some other officials who have eventually made it to a really high level but have had to face challenges along the way. And you talked a little bit about back in the day, I think that you and I, it was quite similar ages. Now, the world's changed a lot since, since you and I first became involved in sport as children and even sport itself has changed. And and that's really why the, the Sports Commission is leading this modern approach to transform the sporting experience and encourage more people to participate, officiate, coach and physically enjoy sport. What are some of the most significant changes that you've noticed in your role as netball umpire, and also in all the other work that you do?
Jacqui Jashari [00:05:13] Yeah, we see, you know, there's lots of trends that we see broadly across, you know, Western Australia. And I think the and in netball too, I think you know people are very time you know, very time poor. And so, the the way people want to consume, you know, sport and recreation and how they want to get involved in it is very different. You know, from when I was involved very at a very young age, it was a Saturday afternoon thing. And that's when you did it. And you're trying once a week and away you went. Whereas, you know, now I think, you know, everybody wants to consume it differently. So, you know, I love the way the modern, officiating and coaching approach, you know, talks about experience and environment, because it really resonates with me. And I think you stay involved because of that experience, and you stay involved because the right environment is created for you. Which I think is getting back to the challenge piece that you mentioned before. You know, it's not going to be smooth sailing. And you're going to get challenges, but I think people have different motivations, you know, to stay involved. They want to stay active. They don't want, you know, organised sport all the time. So, you know, there's a cost of sport as well. I think, you know, that's change for people too. So that's that's a bit of a challenge, you know, across many sports as well. And so, and the demand and commitments to sport is really critical.
Brooke Kneebush [00:06:30] Yeah. Great. And now you talked a little bit about your time in sport. Oh I wasn't that good. You actually sound a little bit like me I, I had the same sort of passion you had, but it was for gymnastics and I although I didn't make state level or anything like that, I absolutely loved it. I just couldn't get enough of it. And I actually went on to become a, you know, an official and a coach and was able to maintain that passion, just like you have. But I think often we, we assume people are in it to win. And it just is not always the case. Yes, some people are. And yes, winning is nice sometimes. But, what are some of the motivations for people you officiate for playing sport and, whether that be at the community level or even at the international level, what are some of those motivations?
Jacqui Jashari [00:07:24] I think, you know, being fit, you know, fitness is is a big motivation for people, you know, and then if they enjoy the game, they're playing the sport they're playing, they're going to to want to stay involved. And I think motivations are around, you know, people some people want to get to the top. So, they want to, you know, you know, participate in sport at an Olympics or a Commonwealth Games or World Championships, you know. And so, I think their motivation is when I look across my kind of spectrum of coming from kind of community right through that, you know, everyone has a different motivation. It's fun, it's enjoyment. It's, no pressure, you know, and being able to manage and cope with the pressure. I think coaches play a big part in that. So, whether they be umpire coaches or coaches of athletes, I think, you know, they're motivators, you know, for people to stay involved. So, I think, having good coaches, not just as technical coaches, but, you know, motivate, motivators and understanding the needs of the players and the umpires. You know, I try, from my experience, I try and get to know the umpires and understand, you know, their individuality, I guess, because they all have different motivations, different needs, different reasons why they’re involved, different reasons why they can't come week in, week out.
Brooke Kneebush [00:08:39] And then. So, we've got the motivations on the one hand. And then people might have different needs. So, they might be young, you know, they might just be learning the rules or they might be coming back from injury or illness. What what are some of the different participant needs that you've come across as an official?
Jacqui Jashari [00:08:57] Probably the best thing, and I teach this to this day, is that umpires, it doesn't matter what level you are at, you should go and experience different, you know, different levels of umpiring, different people with different needs, you know, umpiring, men's netball, you know, perhaps going down. You know, we have the, the disability team here too as well. So go down and do that, go to as many different carnivals as you can, can multicultural things, all those types of things. So, I think, you know, it's it's about adapting as an umpire. So, you know, umpires that are just, you know, you have those umpires that are very technical, and they could read the rulebook inside out, but it's about how they bring, their personality, and their approach to be able to adapt to the needs of the players and the coaches. And so how you approach that is really important. I think if you can't adapt, then you're going to get some challenges and issues across that. So, I think it's being aware of that. You know, we, you know, with females now, it's great females can play, you know, when they're pregnant. So, I think that's really important, you know, and building, building that understanding rapport, that relationship, both with, you know, again, players and coaches and umpires.
Brooke Kneebush [00:10:04] You're from Western Australia and I've spent quite a bit of time in far north Western Australia myself, and I know that sport goes on in some pretty remote places in such a big state. Are there some unique motivations for people across your state or remote Australia. And what about unique solutions to officiating challenges?
Jacqui Jashari [00:10:25] I think, you know, sport brings communities together. So, they're that thread that brings the community in every, probably country town in WA you can drive in and you see a bowling club, you know, you might see a multi-use recreation centre and you’ll see a swimming pool. So, it is often the place where people go to socialise, they meet all their friends, all those types of things. So, but with that they bring unique challenges. So, we have the far north, you know, the Kimberley, the Pilbara. And it's about facilities too. So, what's available in the facility. And I think the heat is a is a factor. And so generally they'll play at night, or they'll play in an indoor centre because of the heat. So, and I've lived in Kalgoorlie. So, I lived in the Eastern Goldfields for five years. So I played netball, played all sports up there and the facilities. Can remember the potholes in the netball court, you know, those types of things. So, but we played, and so it was just about adapting. It's really about knowing when people want to play sport, how they play it, where they play it. And it's very unique across Western Australia. So, but, but you know, there's opportunities for everyone to be involved. And umpiring is the same. We have regional academies for umpires and umpires coming through pathways and development pathways, which is critical.
Brooke Kneebush [00:11:39] Yeah. And it is a great way for communities to come together, people to come from outside of those towns and come centrally together and connect as, as you you've talked about there.
Jacqui Jashari [00:11:49] Yeah. And I think Brooke too to add to that is, you know, most, most states will have their state championships or their country regional championships. So everybody from the region, you know, will come into Perth. And they do it in Victoria and other places. And I can remember playing in Kalgoorlie and it was a big, you know, big event on the calendar to come to Perth on the bus and play all the other, you know, regional towns etc. And it was a big thing. So those opportunities are great and they're things you don't ever forget.
Brooke Kneebush [00:12:17] And they’re where friendships are made for life aren’t they you, keep those friends going on and on.
Jacqui Jashari [00:12:23] Yeah, 100%.
Brooke Kneebush [00:12:24] So with all your years of experience officiating. How do you go about trying to get to know the participants and try to understand these different motivations and needs? What sort of opportunities do you have to interact and engage?
Jacqui Jashari [00:12:44] Yeah, it's really important. Again, from my experience, I again teach the same thing to the umpires I work with. It's about taking the opportunities. You go to training sessions so you might stand around at a training session, but you're there listening to the coach, listening to the instructions that are given to the players. You get an opportunity maybe now and then to blow whistle or to, you know, call out stepping all those types of things. But you get to interact, you know, with the players without a pressure situation. So that's how you build that rapport and build those relationships. You know, in the first instance I think it's being approachable as well. So, you know, during a game or if they'd like to come up and talk to you at quarter time, half time or after a game, it's about how you approach that scenario. I always again had another saying is that, you know, I needed to earn the respect of the players. It was really important that I did that. It was important to me. But also, they needed to earn my respect. And so it was a two way kind of situation. So, working hard at that is really important. I think, you know, talking to coaches as much as you can, and understanding what they're trying to do with their players, but also calling out, when you need to, you know, behaviours and things like that with the players and having a, you know, a good conversation. I would always have a ten second rule. So, if I was approached, I would listen. Listening is really important as we know. So, I would always listen to, you know, what the what the I guess the question was or what they wanted to get across and then try and think, you know, calmly about my response, which is really good. So, I guess it's about, you know, building that rapport doesn't matter, whether it's on a Saturday afternoon or it's in an international level or where it is, having a rapport with coaches is really critical, you know, at all levels. I think that's the case sometimes because they feel comfortable to talk to you and ask you for clarification on things. So, it's not easy.
Brooke Kneebush [00:14:34] And no doubt making those good relationships with the coaches would rub off on their players because the the players would see, oh well the coach is respecting this official and and you know, the coach obviously thinks that they're being, you know, reasonable. So therefore, perhaps I can.
Jacqui Jashari [00:14:50] Yeah. And I think too with that the players didn't feel comfortable, and they might be a little bit cross or a little bit, upset by your decision or whatever, but they'll come up and they'll ask it in a nice way usually, and you can have a decent conversation around it. You can agree to disagree, and that's okay. But it's it's about how you how you do that and, how you create that relationship. And so, they feel comfortable doing it. But I think too, with umpiring, you know, umpires need to be humble. And sometimes, you don't see that, because, you know, they, they, don't want to recognise that they've made a mistake or, and I've done that. I've got a great example of where that happened to me when I was umpiring, you know, the National League and, I made a mistake and, of course, it was in the paper for three days. I think about this critical mistake that I made, but I, I thought, no, I've got to go stay here, and I've got to go to the training session with the coach, and the players and and talk through it. And so, I gave the opportunity at the end for them all to talk to me about that. And they talked about that. And I just admitted that, yes, you were right. I made a mistake, and I was in this is why I made the mistake. I was in the wrong place, wrong time, looking at the wrong thing. And I went. Oh. Okay. So, examples of that are really, really important in umpires. You know, being able to do that and to be able to, you know, say that they've made a mistake or whatever is really important.
Brooke Kneebush [00:16:16] And interesting that you made one mistake and appeared in the paper for three days. And yet, sport has officials because players make mistakes all the time.
Jacqui Jashari [00:16:26] Yes, yes, yes. Well very true. You know, you see it with all sports don't you. You know, and it's just and so why is that one decision that is, you know, I think I don't know what the stats are think in a netball game. I think there might be something like 15,000 decisions or something like that, you know, and they're not whistle decisions. They're what you process in your head. And is that a contact, or isn't it? And is that this and that? So, you know, all in a matter of three seconds while the players got the ball. So, yeah, it's there's quite a few decisions to make.
Brooke Kneebush [00:16:54] So now can you think of some sort of practical ways that you can make sure that participant motivations and needs are met? Are there some sort of practical things that you can do?
Jacqui Jashari [00:17:05] Well, I think, you know, number one, you know, we all have responsibilities to make sure it's enjoyable. So, I think that's just number one. And that's in about the way you talk and what you say is really important. So, changing your tone. So, if you need to get something across, your tone might change. Or if you, you can have a giggle and a laugh in a game and that's okay. And often, you know, placed on here, you can call them by their names. I think being inclusive. Is really important. So, make everybody feel comfortable. That's true. And, you know, go to a game. Say hello. Be friendly. Make everyone feel comfortable. And then that kind of breaks the ice a little bit. So, they're kind of easy wins, I think. And again, it's just that positive environment. So, I can't kind of reiterate that enough. I think that's really important and making people feel relaxed. So, when we have young umpires, and we assume. They come out to our National League, you know, WA, netball league and we assume they're confident. And it might be their first game and they're so scared. But you know, we're not tuned into that. And so, we just assume that they are comfortable. So, it's those little things I think that to say how are you feeling. You know what's going through your mind. You know all those types of things I think safety is important too. So, ensuring that, you know, protection of players, you know, protection of umpires, I think is really important all round. And so, there are obviously some general trends that, you know, across concussion and the like. And so, I think it's important that, we understand around that. Also, you know, integrity, sport integrity is really important as well. So that's you know, key and people being aware of that and what that means. Making the playing environment fair and equitable, I think is also, you know, paramount. And we can influence that, as well. You know, I think looking at learners and, you know, older adults and their needs are different. And how do we, you know, support them in what they're trying to do as well?
Brooke Kneebush [00:18:57] Great. And can you actually adapt the way that you officiate to make people feel included and respected and, and accepted? Are there ways that you can do it when you're on the court with the whistle?
Jacqui Jashari [00:19:09] Yeah, absolutely. I think you can. I think, it is, you know, we often talk in Netball. There's a quiet word. So, everyone talks, you know talks about it being something different. It's just a verbal kind of chat with a player to say, oh, you need to probably stop doing that, or don't go offside so much or, and giving them that encouragement to say, you know, don't keep doing that. Let's let's adjust. Let's adapt so that we're not penalising you all the time. So in in netball umpiring, there's those types of things. Just you hear it in football a bit too, when the umpire will say move, move back off the mark or do this or do that. And I think there's ways we can do that. I think coming down to a community level to, you know, I umpired a little, junior game once because they had no one to umpire it. And so, I thought, oh, you know, piece of cake, I'll get out there and do that. And it was, for me, probably one of the hardest games I've ever umpired with. You know, the kids were all running at the ball and then that'd all run away. And then they wouldn't listen to me. And, and so it was just really getting, you know, stopping the game and getting down to their level and to say, right, kids, you know, you were coaching and umpiring. So, it's like you run off over there and you run off over there. And so, it was just about really adapting the way you talk, what you do, how you interact and what you're able to do at the different levels.
Brooke Kneebush [00:20:20] Yeah. And you talked about, umpiring the little ones. I always think as a gymnastics judge, we put the the learner judges on the learner gymnasts who make all sorts of mistakes, and you see things and you can barely recognise it as a skill, and then you have to figure out what the rules are around that. Whereas it would be easier if we started off officiating, the more experienced participants first and then worked our way down to those beginners.
Jacqui Jashari [00:20:48] Yeah. And it's probably, you know, part of our development here with our kind of state league umpires is we will often move from between levels of games, because they are challenged. And then they'll come off and go gosh, you know, that that level game was so hard. And I said, yeah, it's a lot harder because your skills and techniques, they don't change, but it's how you apply them that changes. And so, it really makes a really rounded umpire. And actually, they they might go back a little bit to go forward, which is a really good way to develop.
Brooke Kneebush [00:21:13] And then also get that experience of officiating alongside other officials of, of different levels as well.
Jacqui Jashari [00:21:20] Yeah. We often will put a very inexperienced umpire with a more experienced umpire. It's no different from what they do with their players on the court. So, you know, and we get that buy in from them. So, it's good. And I think also with coaches. So, I've really, you know, tried to build relationships so that I can be impactful to help them help their team in terms of, you know, understanding the rules. So, Stacey Marinkovich, the coach of the Diamonds, Stacey was based here with Fever for a while and we, you know, we we got to know each other really well. And I'd often get a phone call to say, Jacqui, can you just have a look at this video? Like, I need you to explain this to me, you know, and so we would had that kind of relationship, which helped her bring a better experience for her players. And I was impactful in terms of supporting that. So always be open, you know, to have those conversations and to go into trainings and be, you know, help players directly. So often I would go in and just talk to the players about certain things they were doing. I think Courtney Bruce, being here at The Fever for so long. So, we, you know, we built a good relationship and were able to talk about a lot of things and talk about ways that, you know, look at videos and talk about ways that, you know, she could reduce penalties, for instance, or do do different things technically better so that, you know, umpires would understand what she was trying to do. And they were some great experiences. I had some, you know, not all good experiences, but I think, you know, I think always managed to work through, you know, any challenges with players and, you know, build that relationship often just having a laugh in the hallway or, you know, behind and, you know, having a general chat about stuff other than netball, you know, and so I think, you know, I had some you know, it's probably been a great journey in terms of those friends, both players and coaches. So, yeah, some some really good experiences, I think. And hopefully I had I had had an impact, and hopefully, you know, they've respected probably what I hopefully brought to the game and brought to umpiring as well.
Brooke Kneebush [00:23:13] Fantastic. Oh, wow. That's just wonderful. Jacqui, thank you so much for sharing. And and thank you for joining us today and sharing your insights into the theme of Who you officiate, understanding the modern participant. Thank you also to our audience for listening.
Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29]To learn more about community officiating, head to the Australian Sports Commission's officiating web page. I'm Brooke Kneebush, and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series.
Brooke Kneebush [00:23:29] This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people by the Australian Sports Commission. We pay our respects to their Elders, past and present, and recognise the outstanding contribution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people make to society and to sport in Australia.